The past, the present, the future?

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The past, the present, the future?

PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 6:59 pm

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Zargor
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At first i was going to add this to my post in the BWL thread but i ended up writing much more than i first intended, i suggest reading my original post before this one. This was something i was going to bring up during the summer but things got in the way and then when this had been brought up again and some things were suggested to try and adress this we disbanded shortly after.

but again, first read my old post
Zargor wrote:
I agree, sure some ppl might have been able to perform better or pay abit more attention but! Expexting to take down vael easily with 2.5 tanks that are geared for the fight and lack of healing power is a bit optimistic in my eyes.

If all the healers that were in the raid had been in full BWL/AQ gear pve speced and the rest of the raid would of had equal gear to that sure, it would have been easy but that wasnt the case.

We had 12-15 ppl in the raid who outgeared the instance, but... most of them were DPS (hence why RG was easyish), and DPS cant carry u trought BWL fights like vael when u lack the tanks and healingpower needed. Sure we could have killed him if we had continued since all we needed was a lucky try when we didnt lose healers to BA and nothing went wrong with the tanking.

This raid was even low on healers with ssx standards and that should tell us something.

I think some ppl have forgotten how hard these instances can be when u lack the gear for them unless u try to bridge the gap with consumables,
for example broodlord would have been almost impossible with just 1 maybe 2 tanks (mjol is just a few 100s of HP abowe the being 2 shot by MS+ Nova limit) that could have reliably tanked him with no outside hp buffs.

But yes, ppl could have performed better, they could have prepared more,
but in the end, as Eni said, it was almost like any other ssx raid we have done in the past.

Edit: was gonna add something but it was a bit to much so i made a new topic :weird:


This just once again show one of the major problems with this guild which is unhealthy class balance, it has been one of our very core problems for a long time and it has played a major part in a lot of the problems that has arised the last 6-9 months.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 7:00 pm

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Im talking ofc about our lack of healers, and it isnt about ssx but rather about the game itself and the way we recruit. Before we disbanded I checked the guildlist and compared our amount of players in each class to the general wow pupulation and its class balance and it was more or less a perfect match ( apart from the fact that we had no shamans! :weird: )

In a perfect world this wouldnt be a problem, then all classes would be played by a equal amount of ppl and the ppl we consider to be "ssx material" would also be equaly spread amongst all classes (and from the looks of it they already are, hence our problems in the first place)

Some of u might say "but we arent a rading guild, so why should x amount of class y concern us?" but asking that is just ignorance in my eyes, this issue has EVERYTHING to do with us, the list of problems it can causes or are related to is endless (unless u want to play wow as a singleplayer game with a integrated chatbox that is).

Its about enjoying the game as a guild with ppl u enjoy playing with and letting everyone have a chance to take part in it. This is were class balance comes in and why its such an issue for us that we cannot afford to ignore. If its still unclear what i mean imagine this, a guild that consists purely of for example 20 rogues... how much a the game content would they miss as a guild? now, add 1 priest and 1 warr to the equation, what would the result be? All i want to say is that problems like this will cause some ppl feeling left out while others get burnt out and frustrated cos they feel they cant do enough.

This is closely related to the other big issue that we've had with a small portion of the guild doing the majority of all the work, may it be raiding or helping out other members. Tho this is a problem of attitude, how u approach the game, taking responsebility for yourself and in general respect for other ppls work and efforts, rather than being a game related problem this is related to ppl and can be fixed within the frames we have set up for ourselves (tho why this problem exists in the first place in a guild/community based on friendship and respect for each other is questionable)

We failed to adress these problems in the past or maybe we didnt want to see them, nevertheless it turned ssx wow into the beast that chewed and gnawed on the very ppl who tried to care for it until they were bleeding from so many wounds they couldnt take it anymore. In the end something had to be done, tho we couldnt bare to just kill it so we put it to sleep with a tranquilizer.

Some ppl have talked about letting the beast wake up again, but my question is do we dare? My fears are that even if we could get it under controll it would just come back to bite us in the back when we least expect it. Personally i dont think its worth the risk, we've had enough ppl that has fought the beast and left the game as it is. If necessary when the time comes rather than awakening the old beast try to find a new more manageable one and put a collar on it from the start before it gets out of controll.

/Zargor
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:23 pm

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Ruhn
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First of all, zarg nice post.
I can really understand this way of thinking but there is one problem, I have no idea what the solution to the problem is! how can we create a puppy dog that still can bite. Trough aproaching friends that are interrested in ssx? to start leveling new alts to balance out the classes? Propaganda? more active recruiting?

I think a nice discussion here might find a solution
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:00 pm

Kaewen
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Ruhn wrote:First of all, zarg nice post.
I can really understand this way of thinking but there is one problem, I have no idea what the solution to the problem is! how can we create a puppy dog that still can bite. Trough aproaching friends that are interrested in ssx? to start leveling new alts to balance out the classes? Propaganda? more active recruiting?

I think a nice discussion here might find a solution


I think the easiest most obvious answer is active recruitment.
Lets get out there and start recruiting some other classes i guess.
Alts wont really be any help, more of a burden, leveling gearing up etc all for the sake of balencing out some classes.
Recruitment, recruitment. Never did the Army any harm. :thumb:

Also if we do raid theres alot of inexperianced people in the guild at the moment who haven't even done MC, but they went to BWL.
It's screaming "trainwreck" out to me, apart from the fact a trainwreck would have less of a repair bill.

Alot of it comes down to common sense i guess. If you know you haven't done MC etc and built up too BWl, its suicide if you come along. unless you have a bunch like majority of the raid of good geared experienced players to carry you, and even then they are carrying you so your a burden either way you look at it?
I guess it's all in the name of fun but lets have some common sense.

;D

And from what the BWL chapter seems to be shrieking out, is plain and simply some lack of discapline and respect for the raid leader, or whatever.
People get complacent with raids they think they've done it several times that can maybe slack abit and someone else can pick it up and that is what causes wipes.
For people to get complacent in BWL is a very dangerous thing.

PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:37 pm

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I think the easiest most obvious answer is active recruitment.


Just try and remember what has happened in the past.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:41 pm

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If i recall correctly, classbased recruitment was allowed and I think we should atleast consider it, as, whether we like it or not, raiding is a vital part of the game.

It doesn't mean we should just forget our principles, if we actively recruit priests, we should make sure that they are still SSX material as we've always done.

Whatever we do, we should remain very picky :p
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:52 pm

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Komfort
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I'm gonna say the thing Zargor probably don't wanna hear :p

We are NOT a raiding guild, we do NOT recruit people by classes. We are more interested in the person behind that character, rather then thier class, gear and w/e.

If we are to try recruit only by classes we will just end up with a bunch of a**holes.

After the disband SSX -WoW EU we went casual, if you don't know what casual means, i suggest you look it up.

I'm not saying i want us to stay like this forever, but what i don't like is the idea of massrecruiting certain classes, just so we can raid a.s.a.p. It will end up bad in the longrun.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:37 pm

Janell
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I think you're missing Zargor's point here Komfort. He cares about this guild, came back after he joined a raiding guild because this is where he wants to be, trying to fix the problem that is still around <raiding>.
Look at the Gmotd, look at the people. They want to do Onyxia, zg, aq20, etc, but if you're in no way capable of doing that people will get bored of the game again, it's the way WoW works. If there's one thing I've learned from the past, it's that. Now I'm not saying that you should do progress raids again, since atm that's not possible, but doing mc on a regular basis for example might give, especially the new people, a good feel.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:54 am

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First of all i'd like to say very good and interesting topic.

I know I'm new around here and I don't know all the deep dark secrets about the ghost of SSX-past.
I do however feel that I have somewhat basic understanding of what happened. And that is a fate I wouldn't wish on anyone.


And here are my two cents on this matter, as far as I know noone in this guild is here because the opportunity to raid, although it seems that a great deal of us want to. the problem is we don't have the tools to raid seemslessly and with bad healer/tank/dps ratio it's not gonna be easy.
AS i see it there are two ways to do it, either we start recriuting by class, still seeing to it that all initiates are of SSX-material.
Or we stick out with the recriutment system we have now, making sure everyone in the guild is here because they want what we want and not because od raids, but in doing so having a harder time completing harder raid instances e.g. BWL

On another note I am willing to help out in anyway possible to make this guild a better place for all, so if you want my help "holla at me dawgs".

Tiph out.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 9:22 am

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Komfort wrote:I'm gonna say the thing Zargor probably don't wanna hear :p

We are NOT a raiding guild, we do NOT recruit people by classes. We are more interested in the person behind that character, rather then thier class, gear and w/e.

If we are to try recruit only by classes we will just end up with a bunch of a**holes.

After the disband SSX -WoW EU we went casual, if you don't know what casual means, i suggest you look it up.

I'm not saying i want us to stay like this forever, but what i don't like is the idea of massrecruiting certain classes, just so we can raid a.s.a.p. It will end up bad in the longrun.


If we actively recruit (ie: realm forums post) we won't be massrecruiting and if we do it properly, we won't recruit and a**holes :P, we'll remain picky as always. SSX has one of the most strict recruiting policies on the server, and we'd like to keep it that way.

Actively recruiting simply means taking a more active approach towards recruiting: untill now, we have always let our members come to us, We've never made a post on the Realm forums to make people aware of what SSX would need to raid (better). People want to raid because at some point, it's all there's left. WoW is pretty much about raiding or alting when you've reacher 100 days /played or more. The game is about raiding, but SSX is not, which is why we should always base our recruitment on the person behind the avatar.

Should we actively recruit people, the mods will make our "demands" very clear, and we'll make sure no bad apples get in.
It's not about raiding a.s.a.p., it's about raiding a.s.a.p. while keeping the SSX standarts intact.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:16 am

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Zargor
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Komfort wrote:I'm gonna say the thing Zargor probably don't wanna hear :p

We are NOT a raiding guild, we do NOT recruit people by classes. We are more interested in the person behind that character, rather then thier class, gear and w/e.

If we are to try recruit only by classes we will just end up with a bunch of a**holes.

After the disband SSX -WoW EU we went casual, if you don't know what casual means, i suggest you look it up.

I'm not saying i want us to stay like this forever, but what i don't like is the idea of massrecruiting certain classes, just so we can raid a.s.a.p. It will end up bad in the longrun.


Either u didnt read my whole post or u missed my point entirely.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 12:12 pm

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QuantumDelta
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Actively recruiting doesn't mean going out in the street and yelling for applications.

It means going out into PuGs, meeting people, getting to know them, finding them worthy of your friendslist - and defacto, the guild.

Of the recruits I personally brought into the guild, that was my rule, for myself.
The rest of you found your way here through similar circumstances with other people, for the most part, toward the end one or two exceptions were taken on as forum applicants.

SSX Material, is, by definition, simply those people valuable enough for you to want to hold onto them for the rest of the game, and beyond.

To show friendship, and the respect thereof in it.
Stepping up recruitment through SSX passage is all that is, and I know in times where my head has not been so clear I have said we massed recruited, but we really didn't, the closest we got to that, was when we took on board the GoE guys.

Ideally (ideals are hard to practice) an individual would know the entire group, before they joined, the easiest way to do that, is to get them on raids.
20man, 40man, whatever.
Make a raid, take on some PuGies, see if there's any material out there.

If you are recruiting to raid however, you should be extremely careful of your recruits and advise them that whilst they will be expected to behave as that of an SSX member, they will be asked to conduct themselves with proper course - to take responcibility for themselves, and to work for the group as a whole.
You should also all look to yourselves, and ask yourselves if you can truly bring yourselves to do the work you must do, to raid.

hmm...
That's just my oppinion, it carries no weight anymore.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 12:44 pm

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QuantumDelta wrote:That's just my oppinion, it carries no weight anymore.

I think i speak for all of us past and present when i say your opinion will always carry weight within ssx. :thumb:

PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 1:17 pm

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As cruel as WoW is. Raiding is one of the most important things this game has to offer. As harsh as I am I think that if you want to be just nice for eachother and live for eternity in world peace than you shouldnt play WoW but be active on some sort of chat site. Raiding is a part of WoW and recruiting is a part of raiding. I know this is not what the ssx is about and I won't be actively raiding anytime soon but im just giving my opinion about things :P.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 6:39 pm

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Well well..... the discussion goes on it seems :P Good thing!

I miss the times I had in ssX - I like being in a raiding guild but when ssX disbanded a small piece of me died too. I can still remember the place / time I was in when Mip - that evil vampire - pressed the red disband button :)

Well what to say....... my ideas are as follows:

1. Keep ssX principles above all else even raiding.
2. This guild needs a leader/s - not despotic ones who order ppl around but benevolent leaders the guild looks up to. I know that ssX doesn't have leaders in its groups, but come on all - who didn't look up to Ava and QD as our mentors/leaders? When they stopped playing to take a well-deserved break, problems started to arise - some guild members felt sheperdless.
3. Skilled raid leaders are also needed - more than one or two otherwise they will be burnt out - being a good raid leader needs skill and a lot of preparation, e.g. reading on boss encounters, watching vids etc.
4. Class leaders who will help the guild leaders lead the guild and recruit new members.
5. More active recruitment much in the way QD said - select people who you meet in game or know irl and who are nice, friendly etc. - ssx material.

Rather than rush into raiding and recruitment I would say look at points 1-4 then make a guild plan - which instances will be tackled first etc.
Unless this guild is rebuilt slowly stone by stone, walls will keep crumbling and giving way.

Finally I would recommend that the guild allows for casuals, i.e. peeps who need to take wow more casually by choice or because some irl situation.

All this will take time - maybe too much time for some - but ssX deserves to be where it was a couple of months ago and for this to happen people now in it need to take it slowly.

The above points I made are not flawless and please feel free to delete whatever doesn't apply and add to them as you think best. I am still ssX (not in EU WoW) but definitely ssX at heart and wish to see ssX restored to its former glory. Love you all and a deep and heart felt good luck. :thumb:
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 8:03 pm

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Eolas wrote:Finally I would recommend that the guild allows for casuals, i.e. peeps who need to take wow more casually by choice or because some irl situation.
Me thinks you are a little too used to your raiding guild? :p
We always had the ideal of freedom in the SSC, RL always comes first. Even though we don't have all 5 of those ideals written down like we used i should hope we still go by them to some degree. So, no need to recommend that the group allows for casuals because although its probably something your raiding guild would not allow, people can be as casual here as they want or need to be.

Also, if you guys are seriously thinking of trying to go down that raiding path again and actively recruiting, i wouldn't recommend advertising it on the realm forums or calling out over general or anything like that.. The only way i would do it would be to do what QD's said.

going out into PuGs, meeting people, getting to know them, finding them worthy of your friendslist - and defacto, the guild.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 8:17 pm

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One point I'd like to emphasize that has been slightly touched upon is that active recruitment/starting the old train down the ol'progression route requires dedication and a hell of alot of time.

It's been creeping upon us for a few weeks, starting with the Alliances... let's not get me started on them shall we. If you guys wanna start actively raiding again and stepping up from the random raids we are having now it really needs some thought. If you enter into it you need to see if through and do it properly. Don't go at it half assed like the alliances you guys entered into.

Do you guys have the time/energy/motivation to build something up again? Something that will become irrelevant come a couple of short months.
The mods cannot really take alot more on with regards to recruitment. They aren't exactly slow on recruitmen at the moment. We have gotten quite a few members of late but an effort could be made to get the right classes if that's what you want. That comes down to if they have the time/energy to do it again though.

The strat/scholo groups etc are always a good place to find similar minded people as us without attracting hundreds of applicants from the wrong type of people if we advertised on the realm forums.

To me personally... actively building something up is pointless with TBC so near. I'd suggest finding a few nice peeps of the right class and carrying on casually raiding :)

PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 3:00 am

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Abba wrote:To me personally... actively building something up is pointless with TBC so near.


Its the game, not the guild.

With certain ppl beeing locked into other guilds raidinstances; Another fraction just not interested in raiding atm; Or busy pvping; Some maybe even prioritise real life more than in the past; And a lot of ppl who wont even bother to resub till BC is out... yes, everyone is bored... is rebuilding the answer or even possible? In my opinion no, BC is.

2+something months to go...

Till then we might want to try another BWL raid with a better raid setup... or even MC raid, because its night to impossible with armed as only tank to stand a chance against Broodlords dps output for example... for the social aspect to keep in touch. If anyone wants to give out the call that is.

But Zargs post wasnt about rebuilding... he got some good points id support for when we head into BC... though 25 man will be much more easy to sustain, if we stay so dps heavy a lot of ppl will feel left out, constantly. But who knows, maybe some of the folks who rolled dps are more interested in BCs pvp anyway. We have to wait & see.

My 2c.

PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 4:18 pm

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Sorry for going on about the raiding part again. Even tho I won't be actively raiding even if we do or do not recruit new people I think that some people are just bored of playing the game "casual" ofcourse, it's no offence but the people that are not in ssx (guild) anymore don't have the lack of raiding nor do the inactive people and probably won't be as quickly bored as some other people do. I know some people in ssx atm just want to raid even if its only like once, twice or thrice a week they just want something to look out for and something to do. Though I totally agree with the fact that when the burning crusade (25 man yarr) comes out we might have too much people around especially when other guilded members decide to come back so...
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:20 pm

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Might i suggest everyone whos rambling on about raiding to sit down for a moment & think!

A) SSX atm is not even in the position to reliably raid ZG (20 man for christs sake).

B) We got 2 months (a few weeks more or less) till BC is out. Thats 8-10 weeks from NOW. How long does it take to build up to 40 man raidsize? How many resets can you sqeeze in till BC lanches?

C) Between now & BC 1.13 will be patched, which makes the GM stuff very easily attainable & a lot of ppl will go & close the gap to BC with PvP.

Back to raid or die, eh? :blank:

Now might i suggest that it would help to read Zargs first 2 posts again. Seems like some ppl only read what they want to read & fill out the blanks with pink clouds. No class-specific guild composition in the FUTURE might cause the same problems weve gone through in the past. Fact, if we like it or not. I know Quiz got a different point of view, but i still blame a lot of the problems on the games mechanics / restrictions. Theres to hope (thanks goodness) that BC will soften that up. I find it however disturbing to see the WoW-US group dwindling down a similar path that we took. Coincidence?

PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:16 pm

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Coincidence yes, but I agree with the other stuff you said :p
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raids

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:59 pm

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I know some people in ssx atm just want to raid even if its only like once, twice or thrice a week they just want something to look out for and something to do.


I've tried making some raids during the week but not enough ppl online.

not even enough to do 20 man runs.
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Re: raids

PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 10:25 pm

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Varanor / Dalaryna
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Riccko wrote:
I know some people in ssx atm just want to raid even if its only like once, twice or thrice a week they just want something to look out for and something to do.


I've tried making some raids during the week but not enough ppl online.

not even enough to do 20 man runs.


I think you missed my point. I say there still are people that do want to raid, not saying there are enough of them. Even though i'm not that in for recruiting new people, it's just a conclusion of the "ethical" problem we're having atm :p
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 7:41 am

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It's a pickle no doubt about it! Wall of text crits you for 10k words :D

Tbh, it's not only healers that we lack sometimes, I do remember being the only mage (sometimes Luzid came along at the expense of his rogue) in ZG or just having 3 i believe when we took down ony. Perhaps a few less mages wont make as much a noticeable difference as a few less healers, but you do miss us in the aoe parts (and that nice water hehe) ;).

Back on topic, the point here is that we do go in a sort of cycle where we miss numbers in a certain class at some point (can't really explain this), infact I remember a ZG not so long ago where we had all the healing we needed and then lacked dps, go figure. Having a larger player base would help us to fill up raids easier I suppose, but then you would probably be leaving some ppl out (which is never a nice thing ofc).

At this stage i think we haven't got more than 30-32 lvl 60 members who can be online at the same time (damn those alts ;)), so perhaps there are few free spots to fill up. It's all down to how we recruit then, I think we still should keep to the SSX way. Remember that BC is officially confirmed and its not so far away now. Interest in the game will increase a lot when that comes out, so for now there is hardly any point in going to great lengths to raid instances at all costs. Having said that, these 2 months or so that we have before the release could be used to find a couple more nice players and get a few runs going just to get ourselves used to each other and raiding in general. This would help us to come up to speed faster when the new content arrives.

One more point I wished to mention was the Leader/Raid organizers issue. Correct me if I'm wrong but my feeling is that we are making the same mistake of letting a few ppl run and organize things, and in turn taking it for granted, and we all know where that took us before. Currently if those few ppl cannot be online, the rest of us just stand there and sort of wait for something to happen, myself included. Is it time to introduce class leaders again?, who could take over if some of the mods are not present during some days. That would give the opportunity for more ppl to get involved in the running of the guild and would spread reduce the overall burden for some. Also its up to everyone to stand up and be counted. Every member should take the responsibility to come prepared and in time for raids, perhaps if we sticky a post on these forums listing what every class should be expected to bring along to certain instances, and also strategies on dealing with them. It's much better if ppl know before hand what to expect (we do have new ppl, and less experienced one such as myself) than having the raid leader screaming over vent or raid chat 2mins before the start. Just a couple of links here and there could suffice (I use wowwiki on most occasions). Then its just a case of encouraging ppl to come more often on the forums (alas some are still to shy here :D). All of these things should be common sense actually, but sometimes we need to have some written right and proper for everyone to see. The point here is that, a little extra effort from everyone will make things go so much smoother, it won't alter the SSX way of doing things. Of course, some of us have RL commitments which we cannot ignore (work aargh :D), but these are things which can be done in spare time, and not necessarily before a raid. We should put up a guild motto "Come prepared". It will make raids more fun definately.

That's pretty much what I had in mind I think. Some of my ideas could make separate threads, might do it when i have some spare time :p. Sorry for the long post, but it had to come out eventually :lol:
Misspain - 60 Gnome Mage
Grostag - 60 Human Pally
Aelynn - 38 NE Hunter

PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 9:18 pm

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Unimatrixx
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Ssx reformed as it was 6 months~ ago and back to raiding.. Would be legendary heh
Assumption is the mother of all f*ckups.


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