Sorry guys if Forum noob question but what caused the split
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I was SSC since Freespace so dont chew my ass if my name reflects that and or any bad blood from split. But i've been looking on forum and i have yet to clarify the reason can someone fill me in thx in advance and hi guys new and old members i cant believe i saw Quantum Delta's name havent seen him in awhile and alot of you other guys too. Glad to be back.
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QD is still around so is Killjoy (although he spends most of his time providing for his enormous family), Anubis, M. S. and others...
The split occured right around the time that I joined SSC and later SSX. But a strong difference in opinion between two groups of players is what separated the whole afaik.
One group was about structure and hierarchy and the other was about equality if I remember it correctly. I wasn't much involved in the politics of it and followed QD to SSX because we played Neocron together with SS, MS, Sirrah, killjoy etc
The split occured right around the time that I joined SSC and later SSX. But a strong difference in opinion between two groups of players is what separated the whole afaik.
One group was about structure and hierarchy and the other was about equality if I remember it correctly. I wasn't much involved in the politics of it and followed QD to SSX because we played Neocron together with SS, MS, Sirrah, killjoy etc
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SL33PY wrote:QD is still around so is Killjoy (although he spends most of his time providing for his enormous family), Anubis, M. S. and others...
The split occured right around the time that I joined SSC and later SSX. But a strong difference in opinion between two groups of players is what separated the whole afaik.
One group was about structure and hierarchy and the other was about equality if I remember it correctly. I wasn't much involved in the politics of it and followed QD to SSX because we played Neocron together with SS, MS, Sirrah, killjoy etc
Ok cool well i dunno what my place in the old hierarchy was but i was just about one of the best Bomber pilots under fire and a great hercules pilot lol
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This is a difficult question to answer. The thing is that there were different reasons for different people as to why they split.
A group of people (thinking specifically of moderators/group leaders here) originally left because of irreconcilable differences that had developed between themselves and the remaining leadership of the SSC, specifically regarding their visions of what they wanted SSC to be and where they wanted to take it. Others followed for the same reasons, others simply because they were following friends, some even because they disagreed with the actions of certain people or divisions specifically.
Some, like me, left the group later - a few weeks after the larger split - when the remaining leadership began to change things core to the organisation without consultation (openly by dictat). They began doing things that, for me, fundamentally changed the group from being the SSC I had known and liked being a part of into something I didn't agree with anymore. So there were many different reasons for different people.
I think broadly the core reason behind the split was that two factions formed within the SSC with different views of the future. The split ultimately happened along those lines - people wanted different things, and the SSC couldn't be both things to both sets of people.
The above is, of course, only how I view things 10 years on
A group of people (thinking specifically of moderators/group leaders here) originally left because of irreconcilable differences that had developed between themselves and the remaining leadership of the SSC, specifically regarding their visions of what they wanted SSC to be and where they wanted to take it. Others followed for the same reasons, others simply because they were following friends, some even because they disagreed with the actions of certain people or divisions specifically.
Some, like me, left the group later - a few weeks after the larger split - when the remaining leadership began to change things core to the organisation without consultation (openly by dictat). They began doing things that, for me, fundamentally changed the group from being the SSC I had known and liked being a part of into something I didn't agree with anymore. So there were many different reasons for different people.
I think broadly the core reason behind the split was that two factions formed within the SSC with different views of the future. The split ultimately happened along those lines - people wanted different things, and the SSC couldn't be both things to both sets of people.
The above is, of course, only how I view things 10 years on
"Perhaps this is what I have always wished for since that day. The loss and destruction of all. That's right, one must destroy before creating. In that case, if my conscience becomes a hindrance to me, then I will simply erase it. I have no other choice but to move forward....therefore!" - Lelouch vi Britannia/Zero, Code Geass: Hangyaku no Lelouch
Forever an eXile and proud of it!
Forever an eXile and proud of it!
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thx sirAnubis wrote:This is a difficult question to answer. The thing is that there were different reasons for different people as to why they split.
A group of people (thinking specifically of moderators/group leaders here) originally left because of irreconcilable differences that had developed between themselves and the remaining leadership of the SSC, specifically regarding their visions of what they wanted SSC to be and where they wanted to take it. Others followed for the same reasons, others simply because they were following friends, some even because they disagreed with the actions of certain people or divisions specifically.
Some, like me, left the group later - a few weeks after the larger split - when the remaining leadership began to change things core to the organisation without consultation (openly by dictat). They began doing things that, for me, fundamentally changed the group from being the SSC I had known and liked being a part of into something I didn't agree with anymore. So there were many different reasons for different people.
I think broadly the core reason behind the split was that two factions formed within the SSC with different views of the future. The split ultimately happened along those lines - people wanted different things, and the SSC couldn't be both things to both sets of people.
The above is, of course, only how I view things 10 years on
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Yep, Anny put it perfectly.
As for me, I hadn't been a moderator for very long when the build-up to the split was going on so I wasn't one of the people actively involved with a lot of the disagreements and what have you (later reading up when it was going on and hearing from others), since it was the moderators forum where stuff like that usually went down. Just being a newbie I wasn't a big poster in there and it was hidden from anyone who wasn't a mod or admin too (regardless of our "equality") so I think a lot of people were oblivious to some of that until it actually happened, spilled out and was unavoidable. One of the changes we made when we moved though actually, not hiding anything like that behind closed doors from other members.
When talks of splitting off initially came about I actually wasn't sure what to do though if I'm honest. In one respect it was the the SSC I joined due to the kind of community it was, the ideals and what it stood for (as I didn't know anyone personally at that time, only from seeing certain peoples names ingame), but in the other hand it was the Neocron division I was actively playing with at the time, those were the guys I had become great friends with and I was one of the groups most active members and relied upon healers too. As such, it was ultimately my commitment to the Neocron group and my friends there which lead to me leaving and becoming an Exile. At the end of the day though (and whilst I never personally had a problem with any of the people on the other side of the fence) the reason for me considering staying went hand in hand with the one for leaving as by then it no longer felt like that place anymore, the SSX did.
So yeah, different reasons for different people. Was for the best though. We're happy over here and I assume the guys who remained and later reformed are happy doing whatever they're doing as well
As for me, I hadn't been a moderator for very long when the build-up to the split was going on so I wasn't one of the people actively involved with a lot of the disagreements and what have you (later reading up when it was going on and hearing from others), since it was the moderators forum where stuff like that usually went down. Just being a newbie I wasn't a big poster in there and it was hidden from anyone who wasn't a mod or admin too (regardless of our "equality") so I think a lot of people were oblivious to some of that until it actually happened, spilled out and was unavoidable. One of the changes we made when we moved though actually, not hiding anything like that behind closed doors from other members.
When talks of splitting off initially came about I actually wasn't sure what to do though if I'm honest. In one respect it was the the SSC I joined due to the kind of community it was, the ideals and what it stood for (as I didn't know anyone personally at that time, only from seeing certain peoples names ingame), but in the other hand it was the Neocron division I was actively playing with at the time, those were the guys I had become great friends with and I was one of the groups most active members and relied upon healers too. As such, it was ultimately my commitment to the Neocron group and my friends there which lead to me leaving and becoming an Exile. At the end of the day though (and whilst I never personally had a problem with any of the people on the other side of the fence) the reason for me considering staying went hand in hand with the one for leaving as by then it no longer felt like that place anymore, the SSX did.
So yeah, different reasons for different people. Was for the best though. We're happy over here and I assume the guys who remained and later reformed are happy doing whatever they're doing as well
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.
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The split was actually pretty interesting to see as someone who had been with the SSC for a long time, left due to what I saw and inflexible attitudes, came back due to many of the people I still played with being part of SSC and telling me things had changed and ultimately leaving again when SSX formed because it matched my idea of fun gaming more closely.
As said above, it was differences in opinion on the values of the group.
While I saw them as guidelines, others saw them and inflexible rules which made playing certain types of games under them next to impossible. The way I saw it, if an organization is going to prevent me from playing a certain type of game, then why was I there.
This is just one of many and varying examples on why the split happened.
As said above, it was differences in opinion on the values of the group.
While I saw them as guidelines, others saw them and inflexible rules which made playing certain types of games under them next to impossible. The way I saw it, if an organization is going to prevent me from playing a certain type of game, then why was I there.
This is just one of many and varying examples on why the split happened.
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It is worth noting that there were actually two splits, from what I remember. I think the first one has been covered in this thread already, the second one occurred a short while after when it was decided that the remaining SSC would be renamed to a completely different group with a different idealogy. That was pretty much the straw that broke the camel's back for anyone who'd been on the fence since the first split (I know Wedge and myself were among that group, though I haven't seen Wedge around here lately).
That being said, I don't know if there's any bad blood still around on this side, at least toward the general populace. There might be some toward certain individuals, but I don't expect to ever see them around here anyway . Can't say anything about the other side, as I've not followed anything over there since the SSC ceased to exist (I couldn't even tell you what website they might be at or even if the renamed group still exists, even).
That being said, I don't know if there's any bad blood still around on this side, at least toward the general populace. There might be some toward certain individuals, but I don't expect to ever see them around here anyway . Can't say anything about the other side, as I've not followed anything over there since the SSC ceased to exist (I couldn't even tell you what website they might be at or even if the renamed group still exists, even).
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Ah memory lane,
I think I joined the SSC around the end of 1997... that was many many years ago.
My first serious involvement with SSC games were Earth 2025 and then Tribes [LOTS of Tribes], tho I dabbled in a little Freespace/Neocron.
Then I led a 700+ member SSC guild in Asheron's Call... Oh I digress... None of this answers Alpha's question.
Oddly enough, I backed-up many of the moderator forum arguments back then, so I can reference them, if I must (tho it is like 50 hard drives ago + would have to be dug out of storage).
As already stated, opinions will be broadly different mattering on the person and their perspective at that time.
Most of the explanations so far here are done very well and I believe Anny's summation is very concise:
So I will "attempt" a crib note [my] version.
Please excuse my brevity, I am trying to paint a picture, not explain everything in full detail. Plus this is from memory and it was MANY years ago:
The founder created the SSC with a friendly vision, embodied by a set of simple Ideals.
As different games emerged on the internet, and troubles arose, more and more rules were created with in the SSC.
KJ previously summed up the wisdom gained from our many years of gaming HERE:
More rules required increased moderation and as time passed, led to even more rules and moderation.
To complicate matters, moderators had their own private forum, which was a different world unto its own.
Posturing, politicking and open arguments that would NEVER be allowed on the general forums, went on daily in the private hidden moderator forums.
Many of the moderators weren't even playing games anymore, combine that with a growing legacy rule system and this paradigm caused the SSC to be less and less flexible, especially as new games emerged.
EVERYTHING was argued, debated on and then voted on, with the moderator "mob" majority ruling all.
Most of the time, this was all occurring without the knowledge of the actual gamers with in the SSC.
Fast forward a year or two and an unprecedented incident occurred.
The founder killed the SSC.
Ok, I just got ahead of myself and who knows, the SSC may have been on this crash course anyways,
but in my opinion, the founder preemptively kilt what he helped create.
The beginning of the End:
An individual who had been previously kicked out of the SSC, was let back in on probation.
Then due to continuing to be an "AssHat" (ie. douche-bag, asshole, prick, etc.), he was promptly going to be kicked out again, when the founder intervened on his behalf.
For the founder and a supporting moderator befriended, forgave and blocked the removal of this well known "AssHat".
The founder's logic was not based on past precidence, which dictated that "AssHats" were quickly removed from the SSC, thus minimizing the damage they cause.
His logic seemed to be puritan based, since he forgave and befriended this "AssHat", regardless of his continued transgressions and rule breaking, everyone should do the same and forgive him.
Which immediately led to an increased polarization between the moderators. Some picked sides, some flamed each other, while others (like myself) tried to simply mediate & attempt to mend the growing rift that was forming...
Partly due to all this drama and partly due to the natural progress of the vision/ideals that had grown past there creation and evolved in to something much more complex and at times convoluted.
Then another major incident occurred. It was found out that the "AssHat" and his supporting moderator, were openly pirating/Pk-ing/griefing in a game, these actions were in direct violation of the SSC rules.
Of course it is not that simple, because by then the SSC rules were excessively bloated and easily interpreted differently... so that in turn led to even more debates, arguments and some HUGE flame wars...
Moderators en masse debated the rules, and voted, and voted, and debated, ad nauseam. On and on and on this BS raged.
Sadly, the founder, who had been a beacon of guidance and vision up until then, was only adding to the growing division with his obstinance and self-righteous preachings.
Finally, a vote was cast to evict the two troublemakers, the "AssHat" and his moderator accomplice. Which passed by a large margin and they were about to be kicked out of the SSC.
When again, the founder intervened and this time outright nullified the majority vote.
The founder effectively took over, by stating he owns the intellectual property rights and had the last say in all things SSC, which in turn pretty much rang the 2nd death toll for the SSC.
Again this is all an oversimplification, there was a RIDICULOUS amount of fighting going on at this point, some of which spilling over to the general public forums....
This mattered little by that point, as the first death toll was already wrung, by the fact that most of the moderators were done with all this BS and tired of the founder + his 2 "buddies".
Most moderators and their followers were either going to leave the SSC outright or form something new... minus all the Fk'n baggage.
Something pure, something closer to the simple friendship idea that existed at the start of the SSC. And the SSX was formed
(ok that is a massive over simplification, but it is late, our SSX history is already posted here and I have to go to work in the morning).
But this drama filled story hasn't ended yet, so lets wrap this thing up:
The last and final death toll was wrung, with the few of us that were still holding on, trying to mend things and convince the founder the err of his ways, believing the SSC could still be salvaged...
But he then he hit us with a final proverbial "nail in the SSC coffin" the day he publicly and more brazenly expanded on his rule.
This time publicly establishing himself as a new dictator, which included a new "revised" version of a vision that little to no one supported...
The End
I think I joined the SSC around the end of 1997... that was many many years ago.
My first serious involvement with SSC games were Earth 2025 and then Tribes [LOTS of Tribes], tho I dabbled in a little Freespace/Neocron.
Then I led a 700+ member SSC guild in Asheron's Call... Oh I digress... None of this answers Alpha's question.
Oddly enough, I backed-up many of the moderator forum arguments back then, so I can reference them, if I must (tho it is like 50 hard drives ago + would have to be dug out of storage).
As already stated, opinions will be broadly different mattering on the person and their perspective at that time.
Most of the explanations so far here are done very well and I believe Anny's summation is very concise:
The full version is well... LONG.Anubis wrote: I think broadly the core reason behind the split was that two factions formed within the SSC with different views of the future. The split ultimately happened along those lines - people wanted different things, and the SSC couldn't be both things to both sets of people.
So I will "attempt" a crib note [my] version.
Please excuse my brevity, I am trying to paint a picture, not explain everything in full detail. Plus this is from memory and it was MANY years ago:
The founder created the SSC with a friendly vision, embodied by a set of simple Ideals.
As different games emerged on the internet, and troubles arose, more and more rules were created with in the SSC.
KJ previously summed up the wisdom gained from our many years of gaming HERE:
These rules started to make what was first simple and basic guidelines, into a much more complicated ecosystem to play and co-exist within.KillJoy wrote: We have seen mass exoduses, people causing problems for other members, server changes and people leaving only to come back shortly after. We have learned through sad experience how to stick together, and what it takes to allow a group of people to exist longer than your typical guild/group.
More rules required increased moderation and as time passed, led to even more rules and moderation.
To complicate matters, moderators had their own private forum, which was a different world unto its own.
Posturing, politicking and open arguments that would NEVER be allowed on the general forums, went on daily in the private hidden moderator forums.
Many of the moderators weren't even playing games anymore, combine that with a growing legacy rule system and this paradigm caused the SSC to be less and less flexible, especially as new games emerged.
EVERYTHING was argued, debated on and then voted on, with the moderator "mob" majority ruling all.
Most of the time, this was all occurring without the knowledge of the actual gamers with in the SSC.
Fast forward a year or two and an unprecedented incident occurred.
The founder killed the SSC.
Ok, I just got ahead of myself and who knows, the SSC may have been on this crash course anyways,
but in my opinion, the founder preemptively kilt what he helped create.
The beginning of the End:
An individual who had been previously kicked out of the SSC, was let back in on probation.
Then due to continuing to be an "AssHat" (ie. douche-bag, asshole, prick, etc.), he was promptly going to be kicked out again, when the founder intervened on his behalf.
For the founder and a supporting moderator befriended, forgave and blocked the removal of this well known "AssHat".
The founder's logic was not based on past precidence, which dictated that "AssHats" were quickly removed from the SSC, thus minimizing the damage they cause.
His logic seemed to be puritan based, since he forgave and befriended this "AssHat", regardless of his continued transgressions and rule breaking, everyone should do the same and forgive him.
Which immediately led to an increased polarization between the moderators. Some picked sides, some flamed each other, while others (like myself) tried to simply mediate & attempt to mend the growing rift that was forming...
Partly due to all this drama and partly due to the natural progress of the vision/ideals that had grown past there creation and evolved in to something much more complex and at times convoluted.
Then another major incident occurred. It was found out that the "AssHat" and his supporting moderator, were openly pirating/Pk-ing/griefing in a game, these actions were in direct violation of the SSC rules.
Of course it is not that simple, because by then the SSC rules were excessively bloated and easily interpreted differently... so that in turn led to even more debates, arguments and some HUGE flame wars...
Moderators en masse debated the rules, and voted, and voted, and debated, ad nauseam. On and on and on this BS raged.
Sadly, the founder, who had been a beacon of guidance and vision up until then, was only adding to the growing division with his obstinance and self-righteous preachings.
Finally, a vote was cast to evict the two troublemakers, the "AssHat" and his moderator accomplice. Which passed by a large margin and they were about to be kicked out of the SSC.
When again, the founder intervened and this time outright nullified the majority vote.
The founder effectively took over, by stating he owns the intellectual property rights and had the last say in all things SSC, which in turn pretty much rang the 2nd death toll for the SSC.
Again this is all an oversimplification, there was a RIDICULOUS amount of fighting going on at this point, some of which spilling over to the general public forums....
This mattered little by that point, as the first death toll was already wrung, by the fact that most of the moderators were done with all this BS and tired of the founder + his 2 "buddies".
Most moderators and their followers were either going to leave the SSC outright or form something new... minus all the Fk'n baggage.
Something pure, something closer to the simple friendship idea that existed at the start of the SSC. And the SSX was formed
(ok that is a massive over simplification, but it is late, our SSX history is already posted here and I have to go to work in the morning).
But this drama filled story hasn't ended yet, so lets wrap this thing up:
The last and final death toll was wrung, with the few of us that were still holding on, trying to mend things and convince the founder the err of his ways, believing the SSC could still be salvaged...
But he then he hit us with a final proverbial "nail in the SSC coffin" the day he publicly and more brazenly expanded on his rule.
This time publicly establishing himself as a new dictator, which included a new "revised" version of a vision that little to no one supported...
The End
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...and then there was this discussion of Tribes vs. Battlemechs and it just snowballed from there.
Pain is weakness leaving your body.
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I loved planescape torment
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I'd just like to re-iterate the fact that for once, this is something no one can pin on me.
I always found it really odd, how a group of people who just liked to play games together developed into a living breathing thing - like a micro community. If this was geographical togetherness it'd be a tribe of sorts.
But it wasn't. It was a messageboard. For games. And yet suddenly somehow there was all this politicking going on. From a human perspective, that is so, so, so interesting. Logically, it shouldn't matter - it's just games and text online. It's not a civil war, but it felt like one. That's something that always breaks my brain. The amount of passion people can put into tiny little things like online communities. It's like the real world was no longer used as a basis for comparison when it came to what was really important - which was Just friends, Just playing games together.
The next bit is very VERY easily misconstrued and potentially inflammatory material, but it is how I saw it. This isn't personal - merely the impression I got.
The opinion of the one does not reflect that of the many.
I always found it really odd, how a group of people who just liked to play games together developed into a living breathing thing - like a micro community. If this was geographical togetherness it'd be a tribe of sorts.
But it wasn't. It was a messageboard. For games. And yet suddenly somehow there was all this politicking going on. From a human perspective, that is so, so, so interesting. Logically, it shouldn't matter - it's just games and text online. It's not a civil war, but it felt like one. That's something that always breaks my brain. The amount of passion people can put into tiny little things like online communities. It's like the real world was no longer used as a basis for comparison when it came to what was really important - which was Just friends, Just playing games together.
The next bit is very VERY easily misconstrued and potentially inflammatory material, but it is how I saw it. This isn't personal - merely the impression I got.
The opinion of the one does not reflect that of the many.