Was FS2 it for the genre?

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Was FS2 it for the genre?

PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:12 pm

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I've been really unimpressed with the gaming industry the past few years, where nothing has really caught and held my interest (CoX and WoW on and off, but I grow bored of them quickly)

So I decided to look back to my gaming roots - Freespace and Mechwarrior. Well, the Mechwarrior franchise is pretty much dead and isn't coming back. At least not as what we knew it as.

And Freespace 2 looks like it was the pinnacle of the space sim genre and a few abortive attempts at games aside, seems to mark the end of a golden age.

Am I right or wrong? Is there anything new coming down the pipe to look forward to from anywhere? It seems such a shame that there is now nothing where once games like Freespace, Wing Commander, Privateer, decent and even the X-Wing/Tie series of games were powerhouses.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 6:58 pm

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Freelancer had its moments if you are looking for another game. So does the X series (ask esd).
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:08 am

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Now that FreeLancer has given developers a basic, usable mouse-keyboard configuration, the genre is trying to make a comeback. There haven't been many standouts yet, but while it's currently the top of the heap, I don't think FS2 will be the last gem of the genre.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:17 am

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I agree with you Rock, I bought a new computer last winter thinking that there where going to be tons of games that I was going to have to pick up and get caught up on. Boy was I surprised. I tried WoW and it's not my thing, I find myself playing all the old games that I used to play 5 years ago.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 3:36 am

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Space Genre is dead. It turned out that the concept was something not the majority was ready for.

It's why you see the 76th Madden coming out every year, and not Freespace 10.

If you're making a space game, the concept has to be fairly complex, and so do the controls. That's not very user friendly. Madden on the other hand, I'm sure you can play with the WSAD and two other keys, one for running, the other for throwing the ball or doing other crap with it. Let's face it, one button.

Hotcakes.

I think you need to seek refuge in RPG's and MMO's that cater to your likings. Quite a bit of us have turned towards those roads. It's more or less the only place in the gaming market you'll find substance these days.

PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:42 pm

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BlackDove wrote:I think you need to seek refuge in RPG's and MMO's that cater to your likings. Quite a bit of us have turned towards those roads. It's more or less the only place in the gaming market you'll find substance these days.

Far too true. Either that or dip back into the adventure genre of old.

Its a great shame that FPS' and Sports games have led games to this, but nowadays the only deep games you can find are RPGs or (to some extent) MMOs. Until that changes, both the space genre and the adventure one will remain buried.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 8:41 pm

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Glad I'm not the only one. It's not meant to sound like a put down, but it's the reason I keep coming back to SSX and digging through the archives, trying to find the gold that I once knew.

I've got a good joystick again, and once I get my main system fixed, I'm reinstalling FS1 and FS2 and playing them through to the end again.

You just can't find that same amount of re-playability on these new games.

PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:14 pm

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Its sad that FS1/2 are still IT for the genre.
Tho a few have tried and a couple are still worth playing if you need a quick 'fix' hehe.
Like Freespace is fun for awhile tho gets old quickly once the story runs dry (game could have been SOO much more).
StarLancer is worth a run thru the campaign once as well (decent story).

I've been itchin for a decent space sim as well for awhile now...

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 7:30 pm

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Indeed. That's partially why I picked up Freelancer Demo the other day. A friend of mine got to listen to me rant about how nice the game was and said I should just download it off of BT.

>.<

The nerve... it's only $10 on amazon, sheesh.

I'm actually really enjoying Freespace 1 again. I haven't played it through in a long time, and it's really nice to be able to crank the AA and Aniso up to max for my system and just really take in that early 2000's era graphics. lol.

I'm going to finish FS1 and then play the expansion, then FS2. I don't remember much about FS2, so it's like I'm playing FS1 again for the first time. It's all I can think about - even more so than WOW or anything else I've played lately.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 12:40 am

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It's strange that no spiritual successor to Freespace 2, which I consider as the probably the best Space Sim game, has never been made. I guess market conditions and the reality of high-expense game development has caused big game companies to completely avoid trying to innovate in this genre.

I wonder if some of the reason there isn't more Space Sim games maybe due to the fact that the 360 degree control scheme doesn't work very well for console gamepads...
SSX - Because we dispensed the rhetoric.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 12:52 am

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It's just too complex for the market you would try to reach. The only reason we ever played it was because one way or another we were hardcore, back when gamers weren't "casual".

Now they're trying to get the big games to be really short because the average retard... I mean "casual gamer", can't hack extensive hours of play so you can complete some big games these days in 4-5 hours. Give some sense of achievement to people who can't finish games, and also cop yourself out of having to create more game assets and levels.

Put simply, it's just stupid to be making a space simulation game that you really painstakingly need to develop in order for it to be good (FS2 put the bar really high), or you can make Barbie Horse Adventures, sell it to little girls, and make more money even if you were to make a super-super space sim, with only a fraction of development costs.

MADDEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm sure if they released 3 of those per year with full price, people would buy them. Just the other day I saw a video review for FIFA 08. The game engine hasn't changed since 2001, when I last played a FIFA game. Tells you how much money goes into that crap, that gets bought at full price by millions of people.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 10:50 pm

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BlackDove wrote:It's just too complex for the market you would try to reach. The only reason we ever played it was because one way or another we were hardcore, back when gamers weren't "casual".

Now they're trying to get the big games to be really short because the average retard... I mean "casual gamer", can't hack extensive hours of play so you can complete some big games these days in 4-5 hours. Give some sense of achievement to people who can't finish games, and also cop yourself out of having to create more game assets and levels.

Put simply, it's just stupid to be making a space simulation game that you really painstakingly need to develop in order for it to be good (FS2 put the bar really high), or you can make Barbie Horse Adventures, sell it to little girls, and make more money even if you were to make a super-super space sim, with only a fraction of development costs.

MADDEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm sure if they released 3 of those per year with full price, people would buy them. Just the other day I saw a video review for FIFA 08. The game engine hasn't changed since 2001, when I last played a FIFA game. Tells you how much money goes into that crap, that gets bought at full price by millions of people.


Example: Halo 3
:lol: :sweat:
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 5:14 pm

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Its scary when i think back and realise i picked up both FS1 and FS2
in a sale making them the most value for money games i've ever bought.
Cost vs time played.

The scale of the games was immense, those cutscenes in FS1
were amazing.

Apart from tantilising mods for FS2 like Beyond the Redline,
I don't feel there have been anygames that have come close since.

Imagine how Multiplayer would have worked with todays high
speed connections.

Anyway I play MMOs now, RPGs to satisfy the storyteller in me
and FPS for instant gratification.
My joystick (still have the one BD suggested when i first played FS2 online)
sees very little action nowadays but it still has pride of place
on top of my PC to remind me of the time I played an online game
that required a certain amount of skill.

And rather than end in reminiscent mode, I believe that there would
be a market for games of this type, but when people have no choice
they buy whats available.

So to all you independent gamemakers around here,
get off your collectives and make me the next generation FS2.

:D
Ash
The quiet one in the corner

Its not over..

PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:02 am

Sephiroth
Sup RnR, LTNS..

Genre's not dead, just not economically viable at the moment. The last few space titles for multiplayer flopped & no one wants to go on record as having approved yet another failed space title (see sierra's canning of B5 for no reason) cause it looks REALLY bad on the resume & approving flops (which is not hard to do) will get you fired. Freelancer was the last space sim worth its salt i can remember, but it was pushing up against budget & time issues at release so it never reached its potential.

Not to mention when FS2 was en vogue, so were flight sticks & throttles & thats no longer the case. Say what you will, a mouse & keyboard sim isnt the same as a multi hat stick with 8 buttons & a throttle with a POV hat & about 15 more, or even a dual shock ps2 type controller.

You also have to consider the competition.. back then space sims were able to use most of the new toys in the graphics cards better than most games just by the nature of the game. Large well rendered ships against a nice spacious backdrop were a easy sell (& large empty voids were easy on the RAM & Processor). Now.. most any game can have nice graphics & large lush environment with minimal load time.. so all you have left to sell the game with is game play, which is by no means new, so how do you pitch barrell rolls & long range lock ons to execs & investors expected to pony up a few mil compared to some Halo / WoW / Resident evil clone that can deliver big explosions & up close personal combat with optional levels of blood & gore? The only game i know of that's managed to make good money in space is EVE (which i like) but even then, its not for every gamer because they had to concede some part of the game play of its space sim progenitors to make what was left viable. To make a space sim exciting enough to grab the modern player, you pretty much have to take it out of space (i.e. I recall FS2 being described as Fast Paced WW2 style dogfighting as a selling point on the Box, and WW2,to the best of my knowledge, did not happen space). The same way hardware put space sims on top, it also took them down. But should the tech for an affordable immersive VR experience become attainable for the average consumer.. watch them make a comeback (because the genre easily lends itself to that experience).. but who knows how long that will take.

And for the argument that people by whatever crap is put out in bulk.. the truth is a lot of games fail. For all the Halo's, Maddens, FIFA's, & WoWs.. how many games like it have basically failed? From a business perspective, you go with ROI (return on Investment) first. If someone makes you alot of money.. then maaaybe you let them make something they really want to try like "the sims" (which for those of you who don't know, Will Wright had to fight EA for a long time to get made) Consider how many people with clout like that are left in the industry & how many actually care to make a space sim, or would spend all the clout they have built up over years, on a space sim. Could it be done.. absolutely. Is it worth it? Apparently not to the people involved. Lots of money is at play in the market now.. you can't be as risky as you could back a few years ago. Course you can always make your own.. but good luck getting that bad boy funded, made & published.

however.. that being said, if you want to check out a decent (albeit not great) mmo that uses a fps approach to create a atmospheric flight sim with a sci fi them, i'd try Space Cowboy http://sco.gpotato.com/
pain to install & patch, but free & the gameplay isn't bad for what it is.

My 2 cents on the titles you mention:
Freespace: Created as a cash cow to be a vehicle to other games by its creators..instead of fostering its growth, it was milked dry & when the utters went to powder Volition went down with it. All they really did was graphically update & consolidate aspects of games that were already done anyway.. (they do get props for giving players a mission editor though, that gave it more life than it should have ever had)

Wing Commander: Outlived its era.. the game itself was decent for a time, even cross platform (SNES & PC) but it (read: Origin) went down the road of that motion capture that caused more than a few games to go in the red. They tried to make the game a movie, but players cant play movies.. games as a whole are still learning that lesson the hard way.

Privateer: good single player game, ahead of its time for multiplayer though I think. I remember waiting for Privateer: Armada & being upset when it didn't get the push the concept deserved (IMO). In many ways EVE does now on a grand scale what it wanted to do, just with no arcade type controls.

X-Wing/Tie series: Blame Lucas Arts for this.. they have followed the money trail putting the Star Wars name on whatever genre is selling hot at the time for years.. Space Sim, FPS, Console Adventure, MMO whatever. Granted some of them have been good games, but in the end they are in teh business of selling Star Wars, not making games (like they did when they made ground breaking non SW titles for critical acclaim), the two just happen to coincide at times. If the genre became popular, don't think there wouldn't be a Xwing/Tie Sequel concept taken from the records room.

See RnR.. now you know its really me cause no one else could talk that much..

one more thing..

PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:07 am

Sephiroth
Anubis wrote:
BlackDove wrote:I think you need to seek refuge in MMO's

Its a great shame that FPS' and Sports games have led games to this, but nowadays the only deep games you can find are RPGs or (to some extent) MMOs. Until that changes, both the space genre and the adventure one will remain buried.


Heh.. you think its bad now.. wait til piracy really takes off & the only market viable games that can even be sold for a profit are MMO's.. oh wait that already happened & it's called Korea.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:10 am

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heh, its strange to think that nearly 10 years ago i picked up a copy of FS1 for $5 and to this day i still swear by the game :) i'm so ashamed that i never got to play FS2 :shake:
In exile a home has been found.

Re: Its not over..

PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 3:56 am

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Saad
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Sephiroth wrote:Sup RnR, LTNS..
Not to mention when FS2 was en vogue, so were flight sticks & throttles & thats no longer the case. Say what you will, a mouse & keyboard sim isnt the same as a multi hat stick with 8 buttons & a throttle with a POV hat & about 15 more, or even a dual shock ps2 type controller.


Me and Fahd were both keyboard and mousers for Freespace 1 & 2. For me that came from playing Descent 1 with a mouse and keyboard control combo.

But perhaps us keyboard and mousers were the minority... ;)


P.S. Woohoo! 50th Post! Only taken me three years! :)
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Re: Its not over..

PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:32 am

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=BTM=
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Saad wrote:
Sephiroth wrote:Sup RnR, LTNS..
Not to mention when FS2 was en vogue, so were flight sticks & throttles & thats no longer the case. Say what you will, a mouse & keyboard sim isnt the same as a multi hat stick with 8 buttons & a throttle with a POV hat & about 15 more, or even a dual shock ps2 type controller.


Me and Fahd were both keyboard and mousers for Freespace 1 & 2. For me that came from playing Descent 1 with a mouse and keyboard control combo.

But perhaps us keyboard and mousers were the minority... ;)


P.S. Woohoo! 50th Post! Only taken me three years! :)


I switched fairly often between key+mouse and joystick as I didnt have the joystick untill sometime after Id gotten my hands on FS2. Trough its years of faithful service I cant remember putting it through any other game than FS1&FS2 either xD
Just remember what ol' Jack Burton does when the earth quakes, the poison arrows fall from the sky, and the pillars of Heaven shake. Yeah, Jack Burton just looks that big old storm right in the eye and says, "Give me your best shot. I can take it."
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:13 pm

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SSX-Hawk wrote:heh, its strange to think that nearly 10 years ago i picked up a copy of FS1 for $5 and to this day i still swear by the game :) i'm so ashamed that i never got to play FS2 :shake:


Look at my signature. The "Walkthrough" bit. Try not to wet yourself. XD
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