Exiles

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Do you think we should keep the "Exiles" part of our name or remove it?

Poll ended at Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:39 am

I believe the group should continue to be known as "Exiles" ~ Keep the Exiles tag
9
38%
I don't believe the group should continue to be known as "Exiles" ~ Remove the Exiles tag
8
33%
I don't care either way
7
29%
 
Total votes: 24

Exiles

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:44 am

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M.Steiner
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[Poll options added. If you aren't one of the members to have already been participating in this discussion before I added the poll it would be appreciated if you could look through the thread and read everybody elses argument for or against this proposal and then reply with your own thoughts on the matter. I believe this is an important topic for us so the more who come and post the better. I think it's important to try and understand why we're all voting the way we are doing rather than just clicking a selection and hitting submit without saying a word ;)
Poll will run for 2 weeks to hopefully allow enough time for everyone to add their 2cents who haven't already. Re-voting has also been enabled should you change your mind before it ends.
Thanks :thumb:]



Back when we split from the SSC and created this place the name change that went with it was appropriate, it meant something and it reflected who we were as a group at that time. Whether one of us left because of the way things were being run in that group or the direction they were going, left because of certain individuals or their attitudes or left simply because their friends had done... Whatever the reasons each of us had for leaving that day the exiles part of our name meant something to each and every one of us.
8 years have passed now. Many of our founding members are still around, some still game and are still an active part of the community here, some not so much and some are sadly no longer with us at all. A few never really became "exiles" and played with friends from both sides. We have people here who have joined us since and were never really exiled from anything to begin with either. We also (hopefully) have new groups on the horizon where we can continue to grow this wonderful place we created by bringing new people in, same applies to those.
Point is a lot has changed. Putting aside ones personal stance on the subject, "Exiles" really doesn't mean the same for the group as a whole anymore or the future membership of it. Sure we still stand by the same set of ideals we always have; Freedom, Equality, Honour, Integrity & Friendship. These may not be plastered on every page of the site (other than friendship in the banner) or quoted like The Bible at every given opportunity but these principles of ours go without saying, they are who we are and they will always be a part of us, new and old. Changing part of our name doesn't stop that.

One could say that the follow is what "exiles" signifies for us as a group nowadays:

"We choose to be different.
We refuse to play unfairly against others.
We refuse to grief other players.
We never forget it's just a game.
We want to be a part of a group where friendship and fun come first.
We are proud of who we are."

However once upon a time we could have said the same about the SSC too. This didn't suddenly just come into play with the SSX, we've just stuck by it for the most part.

Who or what did you become exiled from?
Are your reasons for being an exile still relevant now as they were back then?
Are you a member who was even here back then? The Exiles part of our name will likely have a completely different meaning to you? If any?
Putting aside any personal reasons. Do you think the name "Exiles" fits our community and everyone here today for the same reasons it was intended when we created it? Or are we changing the meaning to fit the name?

I propose we finally get rid of the exiles part of our name and replace it with something that has meaning for where we are today and will have just as much meaning for our group as a whole in the future too.
Still keeping "Shattered Star" of course, not suggesting to change our identity completely with a full name change, change the kind of group we are, redesign the site (other than change the banner name), change the star design or anything like that. Just "Exiles".

3 suggestions. A couple of which have already been made before when we first had this discussion:

- Shattered Star Society. Abbreviated to either =S3= or =S=
- Shattered Star Community. We'd be back to using the =SSC= tag we were known for many years ago but not as the Confederation.
- Shattered Star Gaming Community, shortened to =SSGC=

All sound and look a hell of a lot better than the Shattered Star Exiles or "SSX". Most importantly the focus on those names is on the group itself, the community that we have here and it means the same for each and every member. Same can't be said for Exiles anymore and it will only continue to become even more inappropriate as time goes on.

It will also be much easier when it comes to recruitment. Those of you here who have ever invited new people to this place in the past will know that, sure, it doesn't happen every single time but you do get people who ask questions. Why are your group exiles? and why am I to become part of such a group?. What am I becoming exiled from and what relevance does this name have to me?
With a name like the Shattered Star Society, Community or GC we could look to the future rather than the past and instead of keeping a name like "Exiles" just for the sake of it we could use something more fitting for us. Unlike the "Exiles" which has a different meaning to each individual member or none at all anymore, or even to begin with.


BD has brought this discussion forward once before and many here were actually in favour of the name change, myself included. We were unfortunately out voted and the Exiles part of our name has stayed ever since. Over 3 years have passed since then though and I don't think it's fair for BD, who I know still feels exactly the same (maybe even more so since he's trying to get a new Firefall group together which would bring several new folk in) to be the one who comes out and suggests this for a second time. That's why I have decided to do just that.

If the group of individuals we left behind, for whatever reasons, can move on from past incidents and get on with gaming together and having fun why don't we by finally getting rid of that part of our name?. The Exiles name served its purpose back then. It's time for something that fits us now and for new people who join us and in the future.


Thoughts?. How about we just go ahead and do it, no vote? :p
:)
Last edited by Stracius on Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:10 am

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Isileth
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I would be against such a change.

I joined Shattered Star Exiles and have zero connection with SSC, nor do I associate anything bad with the term Exiles. When I joined I wasn't aware of any previous group, its problems or the split. At no point did I take Exiles in the name to have a literal connection to the groups history. After all its not as if I questioned whether the "Shadow Warriors" clan I joined in Enemy Territory really were shadow warriors or "Team Valour" in Guild Wars were especially Valorous.

Infact the only things that made me aware of the split was firstly the fact new recruits were linked to some pages giving details on the group (Which I believe have since been removed/changed) that touched upon problems in the previous group when mentioning why we were exiles. And secondly hushed conversations in irc that would be quickly shifted to a private channel or told to discuss elsewhere. I will admit to this day I still don't really know what problems there were outside of a few names that have come up a few times over the years. And honestly, I really dont care. I was never an SSC I was always an SSX. The history of a group I have never belonged to and feel no connection with does not interest me.

To me my association with "exiles" is based around 2 things.
Firstly I have been an Exile for 8 years, when I think of that I think of the group. If anything when discussing the guild ingame I would refer to myself as an "exile" over a "shattered star", its just what I have latched onto in the name.
Secondly outside of the familiarity of the name the only meaning I take from it is its links with our philosophy, we are exiles from the common gaming mentality. We aren't made up of the common mixture of gamers, yet unlike other similar groups we are gamers. We want to play games and have fun experiencing the high end content and striving to achieve but always knowing its just a game and that we have members with kids and jobs and lives that will always come first. And most importantly knowing that each game will eventually slide past but the group will remain because its based around the friendship of its members.


At the end of the day it is just a name, it wouldn't change the group by changing the name. But in my heart I will always be an exile.

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:27 am

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While I'm never for divorcing us from our history, I think the time to wear that particular chapter on our sleaves is long since past. The name invites the question, "Why exiles?" and the short answer is [old] drama on the interwebs. Sure, there was more depth to the story than that, but you can't expect every new member to try to dig up archived SSC forum posts to see that for themselves. The meaning that the name carried for us, originally, can be too easily reinterpreted as petulance to outsiders (kind of like calling yourself RIGHT in all caps ;) ), who might otherwise quite enjoy our community. This seems like a case where pragmatism may need to trump nostalgia.

What to change the name to is a discussion unto itself and one that I think is probably best left for after a decision is reached on whether or not to change the name at all.

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 2:16 pm

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M.Steiner
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Isileth wrote:To me my association with "exiles" is based around 2 things.
Firstly I have been an Exile for 8 years, when I think of that I think of the group. If anything when discussing the guild ingame I would refer to myself as an "exile" over a "shattered star", its just what I have latched onto in the name.
Secondly outside of the familiarity of the name the only meaning I take from it is its links with our philosophy, we are exiles from the common gaming mentality. We aren't made up of the common mixture of gamers, yet unlike other similar groups we are gamers. We want to play games and have fun experiencing the high end content and striving to achieve but always knowing its just a game and that we have members with kids and jobs and lives that will always come first. And most importantly knowing that each game will eventually slide past but the group will remain because its based around the friendship of its members.


That's fine but it's also part of the point I was making too :)
This is what "Exiles" means and stands for for you. I'm not saying that's wrong or anything but the meaning of Exiles will mean something different to you, to me, to everyone else. The same could be said for when this place first opened its doors of course; how some people exiled themselves from certain people, from that group, the issues that were surrounding it or the principles of which, whatever. It doesn't matter what each of our reasons were for leaving and becoming exiles, when it came down to it the "Exiles" name came about and was in direct relation to the split and the place and people we had just left behind. This was the same for every single person here at that time and these were the original meaning and intention behind the name. It isn't like that anymore.

Nowadays we can say that, because we're different from other gaming groups out there - How we're not a bunch of elitists and we view everyone here as an equal, our ideals and principles never change, how we don't run new members through trials ingame to evaluate their skill as a player or inspect their gear before we allow them to join us. We don't expect members to be ingame at certain times, for so many hours each day or force people into using voice comms or IRC. We don't kick people, our friends, for being inactive regardless of their length of time away. We don't cheat, hack, harrass other players or spam.. It's just a game, we're here to have fun and you put in what you can. We are, in a way, exiled from the types of groups that are like this which is what makes a place like this unique.
However. None of this is unique to the Exiles name or the way we run things here. Before things started going downhill the SSC was that place too believe it or not. It's reasons like that, the ideals and the type of place the SSC/X was founded on and the type of people who were here which brought people like myself here. It's because of this that I personally don't like to assosiate the meaning of Exiles to reasons like that because in a way this is just changing the meaning of why this place was named what is was in the first place just to make it fit.

Exiles no longer seems relevant like it used to do for some of us here and for others has a completely different meaning to them too which isn't in any way related to the split. For those of us who founded this place and became exiled from the people, group or the issues at the time. That place no longer exists and hasn't done for a long time. Those guys moved on, under a new name and can now run things how they wanted to run them without having to uphold to the ideals or change the principles that place was built on. We have all of the domains (.com, .org, .net and however many more there may be heh).

For me. I didn't exile myself from people so much as I didn't get too involved in things back then and didn't know those people as well as others did. So as far as those guys went I didn't have a problem with them as individuals really because I didn't know them well enough to judge. I left partly because I didn't agree with people going against our ideals and principles to suit the situation, hearing of certain elitist attitudes and left because it was the group of people I joined and was friends with in Neocron (who were leaving to become exiles too) just as much as the place at large. When it came down to it these were my friends and I wasn't going to stay behind even though it crossed my mind. So yes, I became an exile for a mixture of reasons that day but like everyone else who founded this place at the time of its naming I was an exile because I chose to become one when I left that place. Ever since that place closed its doors and some of those guys moved on to create their new community together, and when obtained the other remaining domains - "Exiles" no longer has the same meaning for me today as it did originally. It did for many years but hasn't done now for a long time. I can't be exiled from something which no longer exists. We are the Shattered Stars. We're not in exile from those people, the place or their way of doing things anymore. What's the point in keeping a name which isn't related to the same thing anymore for everyone here anymore or has lost its relevance and importance.

It's time we changed "Exiles" and formed it into our new identity which better reflects who we are today, will do in the future for new groups and members of ours and has no relation to the split. The name doesn't have to be the Shattered Star Society (=S3=, =S=), Community (=SSC=) or Gaming Community (=SSGC=). We can always open discussions up for what this should be later so long as we retain the Shattered Star part which should never change. At the end of the day those were just suggestions which perfectly fit our group now and doesn't lose or change its meaning from person to person or as the years go on. They all sound good both in full name and shortened tag and for once we won't have all that bullshit when trying to introduce a new person to this place who do turn around and ask those questions as quite frankly it makes life hard sometimes. I for one don't want to have to bring all that stuff up everytime someone asks but I wouldn't want to fob them off either. We're here to have fun.
If we're to bring new people in like BD will be trying with his Firefall group we should be looking to the future of this community and not having to live in the past by trying to sell the "Exiles" thing to new members who will help build that. What exiles meant when it was created has no relation or importance to new future members of ours, not without changing its meaning just to fit the group as a whole or for the sake of keeping it.

Lets move on. Change is good, vote change! :)
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 2:32 pm

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Anubis
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I am against any change of the name. Last time this was brought up here I gave my opinion on the matter, and it has not changed.

In my mind, this issue centers completely around the question of why we exiled ourseles, and what we are in exile from. The answer to this will differ from person to person I suspect, and you won't get very many people giving the exact same answer, and such is the case between myself and BD - we did not come here for the same reason to a certain extent, and as such our stance towards the name differs.

For me, I was never exiled from people - I did not know those relevant individuals well enough really to judge them as harshly as that - and as such my reason for coming into exile was not simply to leave them behind. I came into exile to avoid the notion that we should continually change our principles to suit what we want to do, and the idea that what we do is always right because we say so. Concepts, not tangible things, but processes that were being put into motion that I could not stand by and support.

As such, I still feel the term 'Exile' very relevant to our situation. Even when the SSC folded, those concepts from which I chose to distance myself remained the same - and I still stand against them and what they stand for just as much as I did just over four years ago. As such, I stand by the name as I still feel that it still defines us. We should not be ashamed of it, in my opinion.

For those who came to escape people, or other issues now long buried in the past, I can see the sense that it may well not be as relevant as it was at the time. But for me, I vote to keep it.


I do and always will consider myself an Exile, even if people decide to change the name. As far as I'm concerned it's still representative for the group, and for myself alongside that. As Isi said, I'll always be an Exile at heart no matter what happens.

I would also like to point out that we have no restrictions in place when it comes to naming. WoW-EU ran for a long time as "Exiles of Shattered Star" rather than "Shattered Star Exiles", and "Burning Stars" was a particularly prominent 'alternate name' in the SSC days. If people have other names that they feel represent the SSX ideology better in whatever game they're playing (within reason of course), they're free to use them. That freedom though, imo, doesn't change who we are at heart - and as I say, as far as I'm concerned that's "Exiles".
"Perhaps this is what I have always wished for since that day. The loss and destruction of all. That's right, one must destroy before creating. In that case, if my conscience becomes a hindrance to me, then I will simply erase it. I have no other choice but to move forward....therefore!" - Lelouch vi Britannia/Zero, Code Geass: Hangyaku no Lelouch

Forever an eXile and proud of it!

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:20 pm

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M.Steiner
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Anubis wrote:As far as I'm concerned it's still representative for the group, and for myself alongside that.

My 2 posts try to cover this and the post you quoted from 3 years ago and why I think this isn't so. With respect, it may be for you but it can't be that representative of the group when there are people like myself who just don't think it is anymore.

It doesn't matter what each of our reasons were for leaving and becoming exiles, when it came down to it the "Exiles" name came about and was in direct relation to the split and the place and people we had just left behind. This was the same for every single person here at that time and these were the original meaning and intention behind the name. It isn't like that anymore.

"Exiles" no longer has the same meaning for me today as it did originally. It did for many years but hasn't done now for a long time. I can't be exiled from something which no longer exists. We are the Shattered Stars. We're not in exile from those people, the place or their way of doing things anymore. What's the point in keeping a name which isn't related to the same thing anymore for everyone here or has lost its relevance and importance.

etc etc.

Also:

Anubis wrote:I would also like to point out that we have no restrictions in place when it comes to naming. WoW-EU ran for a long time as "Exiles of Shattered Star" rather than "Shattered Star Exiles", and "Burning Stars" was a particularly prominent 'alternate name' in the SSC days. If people have other names that they feel represent the SSX ideology better in whatever game they're playing (within reason of course), they're free to use them.

That's fine but the problem still remain. Infact it even adds another question to new members. Whether one group decides to call themselves the Shattered Star Exiles, Burning Stars, Exiles of the Shattered Star, Shattered Star Society, whatever. The actual place they're still joining, the name which is above our doors on the forums and main website is the SSX. "Why are you called the Shattered Star Society ingame but call yourselves Exiles out of it?" then you're back to the same "What are you all exiled from?" "What does it stand for?". blah blah.

I'll let some other people post and share their thoughts for a while since I've already made some big posts now but if we can't all agree to finally move on and chose something more fitting, which would mean the same for everyone here and just not some of us. How about we come to a compromise?
We simple go by The Shattered Star out of our individual groups on the forums and website. Not to go by the =SS= tag before anyone goes down that path, obviously. Ingame we can go by Shattered Star Society, Shattered Star Exiles, Shattered Star Community. Whatever we like as it will always come down to "Shattered Star" without the Exiles name always being officially attached.
Whilst I'd prefer that we went with the first suggestion personally I don't see an issue with the compromise. It lets everyone add whatever they think is appropriate to the end of our guild names ingame but the place we bring people back to and introduce them to is simple The Shattered Star.

Anyway. Have at it. Said my bit for now heh :)
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:53 pm

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Whizbang
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I think Anubis brings up a good point in regards to the name change discussion. If the SSX community are free to create a group/guild/corp/unit in-game with any name that is similar to, not exact, but similar to SSX, if related to the name at all, then why is it an issue here on the community forums that Shattered Star Exiles is used? Wouldn't it be more confusing for the people in-game to join the Shattered Stars or the Exiles of Shattered Star or the Burning Stars or the Exiled Stars of Shattered Galaxies or whatever they want to call themselves and then when directed to the forums they would see Shattered Star Exiles moniker?

In my opinion a community is defined by the people within, not the name on the tin. Would it matter any if SSX was called Space Gerbils in Purple Tights yet the people were the same? How many people join a group because of the name instead of those who make up the group? I can say, for myself, that when I joined this community it had nothing to do with the name and it was merely an afterthought. Same for every gaming community I've joined in the past or present or will join in the future. As long as the people and the atmosphere remain then the name can be whatever you want. The name may be what people see, but it's the membership that they remember and that means more to me than anything else.

Just my few coppers.
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And you'll never walk alone

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Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:11 pm

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M.Steiner wrote:
Anubis wrote:As far as I'm concerned it's still representative for the group, and for myself alongside that.

My 2 posts try to cover this and the post you quoted from 3 years ago and why I think this isn't so. With respect, it may be for you but it can't be that representative of the group when there are people like myself who just don't think it is anymore.

Maybe so, but you asked for opinions and that's mine ;)

I don't agree with the idea of changing it based on the reasons above, and I honestly see no need to. It's who we are and have always been. Clearly you and others disagree, and you're just as entitled to that view as I am mine (apologies if I came across implying otherwise - didn't mean to) :)

As for any compromise, lets wait and see what some more of us think first. As BF said - that's the kind of thing for a later discussion if the majority decide that it's something they'd be happy to do.

Mechanus wrote:In my opinion a community is defined by the people within, not the name on the tin. Would it matter any if SSX was called Space Gerbils in Purple Tights yet the people were the same? How many people join a group because of the name instead of those who make up the group? I can say, for myself, that when I joined this community it had nothing to do with the name and it was merely an afterthought. Same for every gaming community I've joined in the past or present or will join in the future. As long as the people and the atmosphere remain then the name can be whatever you want. The name may be what people see, but it's the membership that they remember and that means more to me than anything else.

Also, this. One hundred times, this. I really don't understand why the name is such an issue for some people (though I do accept that the same point could be turned around against myself in my opposing change).
"Perhaps this is what I have always wished for since that day. The loss and destruction of all. That's right, one must destroy before creating. In that case, if my conscience becomes a hindrance to me, then I will simply erase it. I have no other choice but to move forward....therefore!" - Lelouch vi Britannia/Zero, Code Geass: Hangyaku no Lelouch

Forever an eXile and proud of it!

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:39 am

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Anubis wrote:As for any compromise, lets wait and see what some more of us think first. As BF said - that's the kind of thing for a later discussion if the majority decide that it's something they'd be happy to do.

Aye sure thing. Was just an after thought of mine which I thought I'd throw in really as more people may be happier to go along with that idea. Afterall we may have once been the Shattered Star Confederation and we may currently be the Shattered Star Exiles but the "Shattered Star" part of our name has and always will remain the same. Would be quite fitting, imo, to just go by that out of game.
If groups of ours ingame still feel as if they're exiled from something or someone and the "Exiles" name still means something to them personally then there's no reason why they can't still call themselves the Shattered Star Exiles ingame if they wish, or Society or Community. It would cause less confusion and contradiction when it comes to introducing new members (of "Shattered Star Society" ingame for example) to the forums and website if they're simply named the Shattered Star instead of continuing to call ourselves exiles here. The Shattered Star would probably solve all problems really. Unlike keeping a part of our name which means more to some people these days than it does to others. The Shattered Star remains the same for everyone. Imo at least heh.

Image
:thumb:


Lets have some more thoughts guys! :)
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:00 pm

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It is extremely difficult to get anything going within the Shattered Star due to its outdated, irrelevant name.

I can literally not get people here without having a thirty minute sit-down with them, explaining to them why the name is the way it is, and running through the finer points of why they should attach it to their nickname. By the end of the conversation, it's not about fun and friendship, it's about joining a <censored> cult of the indoctrinated believers, where you must cut your hand, spill your blood, and sign with it on the dotted line in order to be part of the religiously devoted. Fun and friendship go by the wayside of GAMING IS SERIOUS BUSINESS YOU WILL OBEY THE GLORY OF THE COVENANT, DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE WAY IT WORKS YET, ARE YOU NOT HAPPY WITH BEING A PART OF THE - jesus henry <censored> christ.

I understand you may like the name. You like what it represents. You like that it was called that when you joined the club. Fantastic.

Not a single one of those selfish abstract reasons helps the VERY PRACTICAL problem at hand.

Can we do something about the problem, please.

<censored>, just call it "The Shattered Star". I don't care. At least I can sell that.

I can't sell the Exiles to a regular person who may want to have fun, and be part of something great, but has to have an oral recounting of the days of yore in order to be sworn in. Not to mention that after the recounting, they have to pass a check of identifying with it in some form or fashion, in order to be able to take the next step.

You want to be an exile? You go right ahead. Call it that in whatever game you play. Explain to everyone why it's fantastic to be an Exile.

Why are you forcing ME to do it? All I want to do is to get people to have fun here. I show them the "about" page. I ask them if they're up for it. They are? Fantastic, let's go have fun.

I can't do it the way it is right now. The name is simply a serious impediment, and has been for a long time.

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:07 pm

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I must say I am really surprised to hear this is in anyway an obstacle to recruiting new players. I have never assumed the name of a guild/group/clan in any game was anything more than just the name. And in the few cases where I have been discussing the group with non members I have never had the question "What does the exiles bit mean?" asked. They ask, do you PvP? Do you do high end PvE? Do you do many squad battles?

If however it is a common problem that had just never occurred to me. Might I suggest an idea? Could you possibly not tell them?
Just say its a name we chose, it sounded cool and has no deeper meaning. Surely the only reason they are aware of some backstory which happened a really long time ago and has zero impact on anyone joining now is because you chose to tell them. Its why I flagged up the about pages in the previous discussion which to my mind did actual damage in keeping a feeling of problems alive and giving the impression to new members there would be lots of drama and disputes.

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:32 pm

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BlackDove
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No, I have to tell them, because I can't not tell them.

"You are now a Shattered Star Exile. Don't worry your pretty little head about what that means. You just put it right next to your name, and you call yourself that from now on."

It doesn't work.

Especially because _I HAVE TO_ do the community rundown in the first place. How shit works specifically, because we're different from the I AM YOUR LORD AND COMMANDER, YOU WILL OBEY ME. When I recruit people, I ask for agency, not passive complacency.

Which means it is my DUTY to INFORM THEM on things that are RELEVANT to them, and when they have to append the name (or part of it) to their nickname, arguably their ENTIRE identity as far as our interactions go, it is my responsibility to make them aware of what it means.

It is in that process that all is lost.

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:55 pm

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Isileth
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Well again I would disagree. Its absolutely not relevant. This happened a really really long time ago. The only place it still exists as a thing is in the minds of people who think it is. A new member joining is looking for a fun group to play with not all the baggage that you, not the name, are lumping on them.

Ive been a member for 8 years now, at no point did what the previous group do effect me in any way. At no point did the name flag up concerns, it was just a name. And again I must stress I have never met anyone who has questioned our name or even other groups. (Outside of the obvious ridiculous, offensive or names such as "Ultimate Griefers")

There is a big difference between explaining what we are about, which is obviously extremely important, and giving a run down of events that happened a decade ago with the vast majority of people involved not even being around anymore. At no point in telling them that we are about playing for fun and community over being elitist power gamers and cheats and scammers does the drama of years gone by need to be brought up when it would have zero effect on them either way. Apart from of course to put them off.

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:46 pm

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Isileth wrote:Its absolutely not relevant. This happened a really really long time ago. The only place it still exists as a thing is in the minds of people who think it is. A new member joining is looking for a fun group to play with not all the baggage that you, not the name, are lumping on them.

Kinda the point though.
Whatever meaning some people here may take from the exiles name there's no denying the fact that we're called the exiles because of the crap that went down back then and our split off to become exiled. It was all a very long time ago and that part of our name lost its importance when they shut shop and we were the only Shattered Stars remaining.
Why keep hold of the name which is forever linked to that split when it's not relevant anymore and has absolutely no meaning to anyone else who joins us either.

I haven't done a hell of a lot of inviting for a while admittedly but the name does sometimes come up in conversation and I can completely understand where BD is coming from. When he's trying to get so many new people invested into starting a new group with him and to take up our identity in the game and fly our flag, which would be fantastic for this place, what meaning should exiles have to them and what are they becoming exiled from?. Nothing really. One persons response could be "well it's just a name at the end of the day". Then why keep it when some of us don't think it represents us properly anymore?. It'd just be nice to move on from it and not have the name as a constant reminder of why we were called it when that place no longer exists :)
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:03 pm

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Isileth
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M.Steiner wrote:Kinda the point though.
Whatever meaning some people here may take from the exiles name there's no denying the fact that we're called the exiles because of the crap that went down back then and our split off to become exiled. It was all a very long time ago and that part of our name lost its importance when they shut shop and we were the only Shattered Stars remaining.
Why keep hold of the name which is forever linked to that split when it's not relevant anymore and has absolutely no meaning to anyone else who joins us either.


And thats exactly my point.
The connection of something bad with the name is only for those people that were involved a decade ago, any new player, indeed any player that joined within the last 8 years wont be sitting there thinking about being exiles due to a split they have no knowledge about.

I also still cant begin to believe that the name is the actual problem, at no point has it ever suggested to me some deeper meaning. Its a guild name, same as the other 100 million of them from fluffy bunny attack squadron to knights of ultimate destruction. Does anyone actually try and read deep into those? The only thing I can see as being a problem is people trying to keep alive a split that happened, and I cant stress this bit enough, a full decade ago. Is it not perhaps time to stop dragging that along behind us? Not because of the name but because people think it needs bringing up and discussing with new recruits when there is no need for it at all.

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:15 pm

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I say tell the truth as to why its SSX (it should be SSE if we want to be correct but I digress). Gamers will always tell you that they hate the drama associated with gamerdom but lets be honest, people's attention is drawn to it. I would make the argument that as drama goes, its pretty awesome. That's some frigging history right there, and who doesn't love history.

To be frank, The Schism (as I'll term it) was halfway between a nasty divorce and a civil war. I daresay punches would have been thrown if that was at all possible. In the end, one group went one way and one group went the other. They're still Righteously Indignating some cave in the Interweb still, and we're set up here. Its not that difficult to explain why the name of the group is what it is; originally it was just set up to distinguish one group from the other and the name stuck. Its the same with why we call a restaurant "Arby's" or why a person from Indiana is called a "Hoosier". Whats the story behind it? Obscure. People accept it anyway. I always get questions when I give out my email, theangrychimera@yahoo.com, as to what made me choose THAT address.

Having said that, its obvious that the SSX of now is vastly different than it was when it started when we talk about active membership. In all honesty, if we were to change the name I'd be just fine with it. But I don't think that the guild/clan/gaming group name of "Shattered Star Exiles" will turn people off or confuse them.
Pain is weakness leaving your body.

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:26 pm

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M.Steiner
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Isileth wrote:And thats exactly my point.
The connection of something bad with the name is only for those people that were involved a decade ago, any new player, indeed any player that joined within the last 8 years wont be sitting there thinking about being exiles due to a split they have no knowledge about.

Won't go around in circles but this furthers my point too, we're just on either side of it heh. You're absolutely right that the name doesn't necessarily have a negative meaning attached to it to everyone here anymore, but it does to some of us who were here during it all and don't feel that it fits this place like it once did.
Back when the SSX was founded and named every single one of us was an exile and exiled by choice and for a reason. That hasn't been the case for a long time now which is why I think it would be better for the group, not just for myself, to simply go as something like the examples given; The Shattered Star. Something which does represent us all and something all of us are happy to be known as. Exiles is just a name like any other clan name out there but we were called it for a reason and it's no longer the case.

Is it not perhaps time to stop dragging that along behind us?

Taken out of context but yes it's time to move on :p
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:01 pm

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Anubis
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M.Steiner wrote:
Isileth wrote:And thats exactly my point.
The connection of something bad with the name is only for those people that were involved a decade ago, any new player, indeed any player that joined within the last 8 years wont be sitting there thinking about being exiles due to a split they have no knowledge about.

Won't go around in circles but this furthers my point too, we're just on either side of it heh. You're absolutely right that the name doesn't necessarily have a negative meaning attached to it to everyone here anymore, but it does to some of us who were here during it all and don't feel that it fits this place like it once did.
Back when the SSX was founded and named every single one of us was an exile and exiled by choice and for a reason. That hasn't been the case for a long time now which is why I think it would be better for the group, not just for myself, to simply go as something like the examples given; The Shattered Star. Something which does represent us all and something all of us are happy to be known as. Exiles is just a name like any other clan name out there but we were called it for a reason and it's no longer the case.

I really have a problem here with your absolute insistence that it's no longer relevant, and that everything related to the reasoning behind the name is dead and gone, and that none of us are "exiled" from anything anymore. No matter how much anyone says it, that doesn't make it true. Sure you might feel that way, but others don't. I know you don't mean it that way, but I get very much a feeling of "well this is how we feel, so this is how everyone must feel" from your argument, and it makes me uncomfortable. If you're going to try and pitch this, you have to be more accepting of the other side of the coin imo.

I also don't think that this should be an automatic process of "well some people think it's meaningless, therefore that's more important than the fact that others do". It's not - a clear majority needs to be in favour before we decide anything. If 30% want change and others don't, I'm sorry for that 30% but we do and always have made decisions by majority. The fact that "a few people don't like it" doesn't mean anything until we know what proportion.

I also have to say that I agree with Isi over my disbelief that the name would turn people off. When I joined the SSC, at no point did I get involved in a philosophical discussion as to why the name was what it was. I read the information on the website, sure, but at no point did I even ask "why SSC" or think to myself "well that's a bad name and/or I don't like the explanation behind this name. I'll not bother joining them".

Similarly, at no point when I was involved in WoW-EU recruitment did questions about the name ever come up. Not once, and I'd argue that "Exiles of Shattered Star" would have raised even MORE questions than "SSX" if your point was true. The idea that it's a serious impediment to activity here really makes no sense to me and I don't buy it. Especially when you aren't being forced to use "Exiles" ingame.

I would also argue that if that point IS true, then changing the name wouldn't do any good unless you got rid of "Shattered Star" too. We have never adopted the star since the split from the SSC, so you'd just have to go into the same history regardless as long as that is present in the name - and I believe the proposal here is that "Shattered Star" would stay.

[Edit:] Also, should we make this a poll so that we can get hard numbers for and against? If so, might also be worth adding a "I don't mind, so it wouldn't upset me hugely" option based upon a couple of response above.
"Perhaps this is what I have always wished for since that day. The loss and destruction of all. That's right, one must destroy before creating. In that case, if my conscience becomes a hindrance to me, then I will simply erase it. I have no other choice but to move forward....therefore!" - Lelouch vi Britannia/Zero, Code Geass: Hangyaku no Lelouch

Forever an eXile and proud of it!

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:16 am

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Anubis wrote:I really have a problem here with your absolute insistence that it's no longer relevant, and that everything related to the reasoning behind the name is dead and gone, and that none of us are "exiled" from anything anymore. No matter how much anyone says it, that doesn't make it true. Sure you might feel that way, but others don't. I know you don't mean it that way, but I get very much a feeling of "well this is how we feel, so this is how everyone must feel" from your argument, and it makes me uncomfortable. If you're going to try and pitch this, you have to be more accepting of the other side of the coin imo..

Then I apologise if it has come across that way. That's just me trying to get get my point and opinion across hoping that other people could see this side of the coin too, as I've also got the odd impression that "it means something to myself therefor I'm not even going to entertain the idea".
Point is there are people like myself and BD who do feel that the exiles name no longer fits our group like it used to for the reasons given. How many more of us here which feel the same is anyones guess until they post and say so but I honestly don't think it matters whether it's just 10% of us or 80. If some of you guys still feel as if you're exiled for different reasons then that's fine. If you want your groups ingame to be identified as exiles then that's completely up to you. But putting everyone in the same boat so we're all forced to be known as exiles over here still? Even though there are people like myself who don't believe they're actually in exile anymore since the SSC closed?. I'm sorry but I don't think that's too fair either.
Reason I suggested "The Shattered Star" as a possible compromise is because that part of our name never changed and it didn't come about because of a split, we always have been and always will be the Shattered Star. It just gets rid of the exiles part which some of us don't believe is as representative as it used to be. Which, imo, is a fairer option than keeping exiles above the door and forcing it on everyone whether it means anything to them or not.

Reason I brought this up now is because of the potential Firefall group of BD's and knowing how good that could be for this place. Trying to accomplish what I wanted for TOR before it turned into a SP frenzy.
I never did stop feeling like I've been posting ever since we had the discussions before just incase anyones wondering "why bring it up now?". I just left the subject alone because we were out voted and there was nothing I could do about it but keep calling myself an exile. 3 years have passed though and I thought it needed bringing up again by someone else rather than expecting BD to do it again.
However this discussion or vote goes this time around I just hope all goes well with the setting up of that new group and that the exiles tag, should we still end up keeping it, isn't enough of a hindrance that his plans falls through.
You guys are free to disbelieve what you like at the end of the day but if you're wrong and things go to shit for him because of it then that's on you, not me. We're not just talking about inviting the odd person here into a group ingame which has already been formed, established and has many existing members. We're talking about a group of 10-15 new people who would be expected to help form this group with him and start identifying themselves as an Exile too. Imo there's a big difference there but maybe we won't agree on that.
Anyway I didn't want to just keep my thoughts to myself knowing I could have spoke up and possibly helped so I will sleep easy at night knowing I have said and done what I could and will continue to do so until we go either way. I will try not to come across as I had been doing though :)

BlackDove wrote:You want to be an exile? You go right ahead. Call it that in whatever game you play. Explain to everyone why it's fantastic to be an Exile.
Why are you forcing ME to do it?

Put simply.


If people want I'll add the poll option?. I just thought we'd start with the discussion first as it promts people to actually post and share their opinions rather than just clicking a box and it being another vote.
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:21 am

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M.Steiner wrote:
Anubis wrote:
BlackDove wrote:You want to be an exile? You go right ahead. Call it that in whatever game you play. Explain to everyone why it's fantastic to be an Exile.
Why are you forcing ME to do it?

Put simply.


That's a two-sided coin that can apply to those who feel the exact opposite. That argument won't hold water as it ignores one party for the justification of the other.
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Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:41 am

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Was just used to reinforce what I'd said above it really :)
Point is there are people like myself and BD who do feel that the exiles name no longer fits our group like it used to for the reasons given. How many more of us here which feel the same is anyones guess until they post and say so but I honestly don't think it matters whether it's just 10% of us or 80. If some of you guys still feel as if you're exiled for different reasons then that's fine. If you want your groups ingame to be identified as exiles then that's completely up to you. But putting everyone in the same boat so we're all forced to be known as exiles over here still? Even though there are people like myself who don't believe they're actually in exile anymore since the SSC closed?. I'm sorry but I don't think that's too fair either.
Reason I suggested "The Shattered Star" as a possible compromise is because that part of our name never changed and it didn't come about because of a split, we always have been and always will be the Shattered Star. It just gets rid of the exiles part which some of us don't believe is as representative as it used to be. Which, imo, is a fairer option than keeping exiles above the door and forcing it on everyone whether it means anything to them or not.


I didn't personally see that as ignoring the other side of the argument personally. If I was still solely trying to sell the idea of changing the "Exiles" part to something new like Society then I could see your point as I'd be forcing that new part of our name on people who still believed that Exiles has meaning to them and the group, just as I believe some of us are forced into calling ourselves exiles when we don't think we or the group are anymore.
Just going by The Shattered Star on the other hand, whilst I can appreciate is a new form of our name and that's what I'm suggesting we adobt, would still be the Shattered Star just like it is now and always has been. Just without the exiles bit. I do think that's a bit different than expecting us to call ourselves Exiles but maybe that's because I'm on this side of the fence.

Time for bed anyway heh. :thumb:
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:57 am

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Isileth
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Obviously this could easily keep going round in circles. Certainly the point about how you feel about the tag exile is based purely on opinion with no correct answer so there is no convincing anyone one way or the other.

However there is a couple of things that might be better if we focused on as it would bring it back to a discussion over the actual implications of the name and away from just back and forth of two perfectly legitimate but opposite viewpoints.

1) Is the name itself actually preventing people from joining/making it harder to recruit?

On this point I do find myself struggling to believe the claim. As I have stated and Anny appears to agree, I would be very surprised if anyone actually cares about the name of a group when looking to join. Surely the key things are what type of group is it. PvE or PvP or Both, Hardcore or Casual, Big or Small, are the people friendly, would I fit in etc.
Outside of something blatantly offensive or childish would anyone here really choose another guild to join based on the name? Ive happily joined a German clan in ET that I to this day still have no clue what the name even meant in English. What was important was the people involved and that they were doing the things I wanted to be doing.

And as a secondary point to this, if there are any actual difficulties is it because players are being told of something that happened 10 years ago with a totally different group of people like it still matters today? When recruiting can we not talk about what the group is now, its philosophy and playstyle, not its drama from the past.


2) Can the name of the group not just be a cool name for a group and be left at that?

I joined the Exiles by making friends in DHL and eventually being invited after loitering in the irc as a guest making the place look untidy. I wasn't a member or even aware of the SSC as an entity so I was never exiled/went into exile. I joined a group called the Shattered Star Exiles and thought to myself "Cool name". I did not look to attach any greater significance to it or interpret any deep meaning in its choice.

I know this is perhaps wandering back into the personal opinion on the name but for those saying they have been "forced" to be an exile for the last 10 years do you really put that much meaning on the name that it feels bad to be called an exile? Can it not just be the name of the group you have spent the last 10 years of your life playing games with and be left at that?

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:20 am

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I think that we do ourselves a disservice in this thread by not remembering what the name of any group really is: the shortest possible description of that group. The Shattered Star Confederation had a very well-conceived name. It was literally a confederation of largely independent groups, united and governed by some broad rules that could be represented as the five points of a star. Regardless of the baggage that the governiing ideals eventually became, that name neatly encapsulated organization's structure and intent.

What does our name say about this organization? As you read the rest of this post, mull that over, and I'll address it, myself, a little further down.


Isileth wrote:2) Can the name of the group not just be a cool name for a group and be left at that?


No, it can't. We didn't name the group Shattered Star Exiles because it was a cool name. We named it that because we felt like we were wronged by our parent organization and had to leave. If someone asks why we chose the name, and you respond that it's because it sounded like a cool name, then you're a liar. The name, as it stands, cannot be divorced from the history of our founding, because it is a part of that history.


Isileth wrote:1) Is the name itself actually preventing people from joining/making it harder to recruit?


The name in and of itself is not what drives off potential recruits. The crap (and that's exactly what old internet drama is) that the name dredges up is, in and of itself, not what drives off potential recruits. That we used our organization's name, the three words used to give the briefest description of us possible, to dredge up that crap and wear it on our sleaves is telling to potential recruits. It says that, on some level, we're proud of generating drama, which can put people off. This many years on, it also says that we can't let petty shit go, like a group of ostensibly mature adults might.

Which brings me to another point: This whole, "I still feel like an exile," thing.... Get the <censored> over it. The organization from which you were exiled ceased to exist, principally because we, the core of it, left. It wasn't even a particularly slow process. We left, and within six months, there was no more organization calling itself the Shattered Star Confederation. As a final '<censored> you,' within a year, we owned all of the old Shattered Star domain names. And all of this played out eight years ago! You haven't moved on? You still feel so attached to a conflict with some uncompromising jerks, with whom you haven't had to interact for almost a decade, that you still need to leave its halmark burned into our organization's name? How utterly ridiculous.

I rescind my previous statement about our name being misinterpreted as a sign of petulance. I was being too diplomatic, early in the thread. The name is an indicator of real petulance, in exactly the same way that the name of the other side of the split, "Righteous Indignation" is. Our name says that we haven't gotten over this long since dead and buried conflict and that we have to announce to absolutely everyone we meet how right we are and how wrong the other guys were.

Let's move on, together, and consign this eight-years-finished conflict to the annals of our history page, where it belongs.

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:55 am

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Look, I went through a lot of trouble to export the SSX logo to an embroidery machine font years ago, and that shit wasn't cheap. I've got three SSX hats, for Pete's sake. We can't change the name now!

I am surprised that anyone is still rehashing our past and formation. We are a community with levels of longevity, dedication, wisdom and friendship that surpass the majority of gaming groups in existence. Our membership waxes and wanes. We have a core of members who stay here, through the years, because this is the best place. Maybe not the most active, nor the most exciting, but the best. We are stable, friendly, honest.

We are friends. Our name doesn't change that.

But our name matters. Keeping it alienates some of us. Changing it alienates others.

I suggest we remain SSx. Let the small x be whatever each group or division wants. x____________ sign your name here. Shattered Star eXiles. Shattered Star eXhibitionists. Shattered Star Gamers (SSxG). Shattered Star: BlackDove's Squad (SSxBS). Whatever.

It isn't a great solution, but it keeps us under the Shattered Star banner, retains the SSX tag to which so many have become accustomed, and allows us accomodate those who are attached to our history.

Drop eXiles? I can live with it. Get rid of SSX? I am not ready for that.
"All I was trying to do was get people to want to make their own new ring of light so that it is forever a name with meaning and substance ...." - BlackDove the Beneficent

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:55 am

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Isileth
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BlueFlames wrote:Which brings me to another point: This whole, "I still feel like an exile," thing.... Get the <censored> over it. The organization from which you were exiled ceased to exist, principally because we, the core of it, left.


That doesn't address those like myself who joined after the split and never felt like an exile from another group. Infact I would say thats exactly where the lines appear to be split on this issue. Those that were part of the SSC seem set against remaining an exile while those that joined after are happy to remain one.

BlueFlames wrote:
Isileth wrote:2) Can the name of the group not just be a cool name for a group and be left at that?


No, it can't. We didn't name the group Shattered Star Exiles because it was a cool name. We named it that because we felt like we were wronged by our parent organization and had to leave. If someone asks why we chose the name, and you respond that it's because it sounded like a cool name, then you're a liar. The name, as it stands, cannot be divorced from the history of our founding, because it is a part of that history.


The key fact is that it is our name, how we choose to see it is entirely up to us. I'm not saying it wasn't chosen for that reason, but 10 years on when most from that time have left and as many members have no clue what the whole issue about as those that do, I think its quite easy to say it has been divorced from its history apart from in the minds of those who are dragging this issue up.

You also bring up the argument that the mature thing to do would be to cast of this name and return to one we haven't used in a decade and it would be ridiculous and silly not to.
Well im sorry but on this I totally disagree. To me this is very much the opposite way round. Your telling others to move on? Your the one claiming a simple name is some horrible badge of shame and drama. Its those that clearly haven't gotten over that drama, from 10 years ago, that are keeping any issues alive. Would the mature thing not be to "get over it" , to paraphrase you, by accepting that the actual ridiculousness is letting the drama from that long ago hold so much sway over you and giving far to much of a damn about imaginary problems.


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