Exiles

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Do you think we should keep the "Exiles" part of our name or remove it?

Poll ended at Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:39 am

I believe the group should continue to be known as "Exiles" ~ Keep the Exiles tag
9
38%
I don't believe the group should continue to be known as "Exiles" ~ Remove the Exiles tag
8
33%
I don't care either way
7
29%
 
Total votes: 24

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 8:09 am

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M.Steiner
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Isileth wrote:1) Is the name itself actually preventing people from joining/making it harder to recruit?

Not the name itself but what it is assosiated with and why we chose to call ourselves Exiles to begin with.
What BD's trying to do with the Firefall group will be to a little bit different to how myself and others have recruited in the past on a person by person basis into an already formed and established guild. He'd be expecting quite a significant amount of people to form this new group with him and take on the exiles identity along with it. A name which regardless of what some peoples interpretations of it may be these days it is still and always will be linked to our separation from the Confederation and the shit that went down which was what caused us to leave and call ourselves Exiles in the first place. There's no denying this right?
When he's dealing with so many new people at once like this who would all be starting a group together, I can't imagine how a name discussion wouldn't come up in the conversation when he's trying to get them all onboard. What would exiles mean to these people? Absolutely nothing.
The Shattered Star name isn't a problem because that's who we've always been and is easy to fly. It's the exiles part which has the negative baggage attached to it.

And as a secondary point to this, if there are any actual difficulties is it because players are being told of something that happened 10 years ago with a totally different group of people like it still matters today?.
I'm sure BD will come along and answer this as he's the one who will be trying to introduce these guys to this place but it just doesn't look good in all honesty. The name is linked to that split no matter how you look at it, that's a fact and those of us here from that time know it.
We named ourselves Exiles for a reason and imo that served its purpose. But when we're trying to sell the point that we're not like these other communities and that we're all about fun and friendship and all of this and yet we're still calling ourselves Exiles so many years after the place we left to become exiles closed and went about their business under a new name.. doesn't give a very good impression. What kind of message does that send out to people?

When recruiting can we not talk about what the group is now, its philosophy and playstyle, not its drama from the past
That's exactly what I tried to do when I wrote the "join us" page on the TOR site. Focus on what makes us different and our previous accomplisments and games we've played rather than anything negative. Taken out of context again but maybe if more people thought this way they wouldn't still want to hang on to the Exiles name which will forever be assosiated with such things.

2) Can the name of the group not just be a cool name for a group and be left at that?
Yes if a group chose a name for themselves simply because it sounded cool to them. For us? No. Because we chose Exiles for a reason and there's no getting away from that. Your other point about "when most from that time have left and as many members have no clue what the whole issue about as those that do" just makes keeping hold of the name even worse in my eyes as you're right. I just see this as another point in favour of its removal.

but for those saying they have been "forced" to be an exile for the last 10 years do you really put that much meaning on the name that it feels bad to be called an exile?

Exiles was a perfectly fitting name when we separated ourselves from the Confederation and kept the Shattered Star name in Exile. I feel it was just as important and relevant to myself and us as a group for many years after the event too. But since that place closed and we regained all of the domains attached to it? When there were no other Shattered Stars but us guys here?. No, since then I haven't seen myself as being exiled anymore or see the point in continue to go by that. Always a Shattered Star but not exiled. There is nothing for me to be exiled from anymore. It's not that I feel "bad" by being called one.
Maybe forced is a strong word but it does sum up what I mean. If I don't consider myself to be exiled anymore because of those reasons then why should I or other people who may feel the same way still continue to call ourselves one when we don't believe we should anymore?. When it's not just any old name to me just as it obviously isn't for someone like Anny either (I'm assuming) since he's firmly against any change of it. To me it doesn't seem right to force, as it were, that name above our door and have everyone continue to go by it just because some people still feel as if they're in exile from something after all this time. Wanna call yourself an Exile individually? Fine. But why label the whole place as it after so many years and not just expect everyone else to do the same but to preach it to others too?



I saw "The Shattered Star" as the best alternative when trying to look at it from both sides which is why I started pressing that instead. Same name we've always gone by in some shape or form just without the negativity assosiated with the naming of Exiles. No new additions to the name here. No expecting people to call themselves an Exile when they don't think they should anymore. Just moving on as the Shattered Star. People can add exiles, society, community or whatever else they fancy in the games themselves if we wish just as they can now just the place we bring people back to simply refers to us as the Shattered Star. The part of our name which has always remained the same, hasn't changed or lost its meaning to some of us and its something which all of us are happy with.
I've tried not to be biased and listen to everyone elses point of view but I honestly don't see an issue with this suggestion personally.
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Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:14 am

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Isileth
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M.Steiner wrote:
Isileth wrote:1) Is the name itself actually preventing people from joining/making it harder to recruit?

Not the name itself but what it is assosiated with and why we chose to call ourselves Exiles to begin with.... A name which regardless of what some peoples interpretations of it may be these days it is still and always will be linked to our separation from the Confederation and the shit that went down which was what caused us to leave and call ourselves Exiles in the first place. There's no denying this right?..... What would exiles mean to these people? Absolutely nothing..... The Shattered Star name isn't a problem because that's who we've always been and is easy to fly. It's the exiles part which has the negative baggage attached to it.


While I obviously dont want to keep going round in circles as we have indeed ended up doing on peoples opinions and views there are points which I think can be argued and that I disagree with.
For starters yes, I am denying that. It is in no way whatsoever linked in my mind, and as you point out it would also mean nothing (the exact same amount any other name would mean to a new recruit) to new members. That link is only in those that were involved at the time, 10 years ago. There is zero link for those that have joined anytime in the past decade. And an Exile is who I have always been.

M.Steiner wrote:
And as a secondary point to this, if there are any actual difficulties is it because players are being told of something that happened 10 years ago with a totally different group of people like it still matters today?.

The name is linked to that split no matter how you look at it, that's a fact and those of us here from that time know it.... What kind of message does that send out to people?


Again the same point as above, to me and anyone who joined/joins after the split, no there is no link. It is purely "those from that time" that see it that way. And it doesnt send out any message. Really this is a key point I have made in a few of these posts now and it hasnt been addressed at all. Do people really care about the name of this group or any group that they join ingame? I never have and have never met anyone that does. Whats important is what the group is, what it does and how it does it.

M.Steiner wrote:
When recruiting can we not talk about what the group is now, its philosophy and playstyle, not its drama from the past

maybe if more people thought this way they wouldn't still want to hang on to the Exiles name which will forever be assosiated with such things.


Same point, it is not forever associated with it, just with the people involved at the time who haven't moved on from it themselves.

M.Steiner wrote:
2) Can the name of the group not just be a cool name for a group and be left at that?

Your other point about "when most from that time have left and as many members have no clue what the whole issue about as those that do" just makes keeping hold of the name even worse in my eyes as you're right. I just see this as another point in favour of its removal.


Well your argument against the name is based on it being a problem for current members and new members and yet you seem to agree that it isnt an issue for many people at all. I dont see how that is a point in favour of dropping it.

M.Steiner wrote:
but for those saying they have been "forced" to be an exile for the last 10 years do you really put that much meaning on the name that it feels bad to be called an exile?

No, since then I haven't seen myself as being exiled anymore or see the point in continue to go by that. Always a Shattered Star but not exiled. There is nothing for me to be exiled from anymore. It's not that I feel "bad" by being called one..... If I don't consider myself to be exiled anymore because of those reasons then why should I or other people who may feel the same way still continue to call ourselves one when we don't believe we should anymore?..... To me it doesn't seem right to force, as it were, that name above our door and have everyone continue to go by it just because some people still feel as if they're in exile from something after all this time.


Basically a repost from before but I was not part of the exile from SSC, my association with the name is not one of exile in the literal sense. Therefore my support for the name is not because I still feel I am in exile from another group because that was never the case to begin with.
As for being forced to use the groups name I do find that odd. This is a name we have had for many years now and is the name of the group. It seems as odd to me as someone playing for Man United but asking if they could wear a Liverpool shirt on the pitch. Is a member of a group using the groups name really something forced upon them?

M.Steiner wrote:I've tried not to be biased and listen to everyone elses point of view but I honestly don't see an issue with this suggestion personally.

Well the issue is there are many like myself who have a purely positive connection with the name Exiles and whats being asked is for that to be stripped away and replaced with something else that there is no connection with. And it does seem to be the people that have a problem with it dont have a problem with the name per se but their personal connection with the word. So it does seem to boil down to those that have that history and those that dont.

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:43 am

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Isileth wrote:
BlueFlames wrote:Which brings me to another point: This whole, "I still feel like an exile," thing.... Get the <censored> over it. The organization from which you were exiled ceased to exist, principally because we, the core of it, left.


That doesn't address those like myself who joined after the split and never felt like an exile from another group. Infact I would say thats exactly where the lines appear to be split on this issue. Those that were part of the SSC seem set against remaining an exile while those that joined after are happy to remain one.


Untrue. Going back over this thread, your's is the only name on either side of the discussion that stands out as one who wasn't in the SSC, pre-split. Don't try to turn this into some oldguard-versus-newguard thing, when that's clearly not what's going on.

Isileth wrote:The key fact is that it is our name, how we choose to see it is entirely up to us.


The practical issue at hand isn't how we choose to see the name, but how potential recruits see it. If it puts people off, as BlackDove and M.Steiner attest, then the name is a problem that needs to be addressed.

Isileth wrote:[You're] the one claiming a simple name is some horrible badge of shame and drama.


If that's how it's seen to outsiders, then that's what it is. You seem to be forgetting that the author's original/current intent is rarely the sole meaning to be derived from anything that is written. It's the reader who has the greatest say in how he/she interprets what is read.

Isileth wrote:You also bring up the argument that the mature thing to do would be to cast of this name and return to one we haven't used in a decade and it would be ridiculous and silly not to.


Nowhere did I suggest going back to the SSC name. I contrasted the effectiveness of that name for that group with the effectiveness of our name for our group. I'd like to see us use a name as effective as the old one at describing our organization and that doesn't serve as recruit repellant. I've yet to propose or support an alternative name, because, as I stated earlier, that deserve's a separate discussion altogether. What I think is ridiculous is the desperate clinging to the exiles brand for purely emotional reasons, when the name is ineffective at best or counterproductive at worst.

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:27 pm

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On a slight tangent, I seem to remember some discussion about Lonestar owning a copyright on "Shattered Star Confederation" name...or was that merely the site address.
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Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:28 pm

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BlueFlames wrote:
Isileth wrote:
BlueFlames wrote:Which brings me to another point: This whole, "I still feel like an exile," thing.... Get the <censored> over it. The organization from which you were exiled ceased to exist, principally because we, the core of it, left.


That doesn't address those like myself who joined after the split and never felt like an exile from another group. Infact I would say thats exactly where the lines appear to be split on this issue. Those that were part of the SSC seem set against remaining an exile while those that joined after are happy to remain one.


Untrue. Going back over this thread, your's is the only name on either side of the discussion that stands out as one who wasn't in the SSC, pre-split. Don't try to turn this into some oldguard-versus-newguard thing, when that's clearly not what's going on.


Not true. I joined long after the SSC-SSX split. And I feel much like Isi does on this issue.

BlueFlames wrote:
Isileth wrote:The key fact is that it is our name, how we choose to see it is entirely up to us.


The practical issue at hand isn't how we choose to see the name, but how potential recruits see it. If it puts people off, as BlackDove and M.Steiner attest, then the name is a problem that needs to be addressed.


If this was such a problem, how is it that the TOR group was able to recruit people without all the trouble that BD seems to have?

BlueFlames wrote:
Isileth wrote:[You're] the one claiming a simple name is some horrible badge of shame and drama.


If that's how it's seen to outsiders, then that's what it is. You seem to be forgetting that the author's original/current intent is rarely the sole meaning to be derived from anything that is written. It's the reader who has the greatest say in how he/she interprets what is read.


Correct. And each reader interprets differently. If each reader is coming to the same interpretation then that usually means the reader is influenced by a 3rd party.

BlueFlames wrote:
Isileth wrote:You also bring up the argument that the mature thing to do would be to cast of this name and return to one we haven't used in a decade and it would be ridiculous and silly not to.


Nowhere did I suggest going back to the SSC name. I contrasted the effectiveness of that name for that group with the effectiveness of our name for our group. I'd like to see us use a name as effective as the old one at describing our organization and that doesn't serve as recruit repellant. I've yet to propose or support an alternative name, because, as I stated earlier, that deserve's a separate discussion altogether. What I think is ridiculous is the desperate clinging to the exiles brand for purely emotional reasons, when the name is ineffective at best or counterproductive at worst.


You have people claiming it's ineffective while others saying it has no effect on the community. To claim that people are desperate to hold onto something for purely emotional reasons is invalidating their opinions while attempting to strengthen your own. A person's reason for holding to a name can be for any reason, each one as valid as the person who wants to get rid of it. Trying to shame or disgrace someone because of their opinion is puerile.

I have no issue with keeping the name or changing it. My concern is that people are either being led to believe our name is some dark cloud hanging over the community and it enshrouds what goes on here or that people are choosing to join because of the name and not the community itself. It is a name. It is a name that has history. But it is not a name that describes what goes on now. It would be like Germany asking to change their name because of the history associated with it and that they are having a hard time getting people to visit/live/invest there. History is a part of life and the growing experience. Just because the SSX name might have a few black marks on its record sheet doesn't mean that there aren't also plaudits.
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Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:47 pm

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M.Steiner wrote:To me it doesn't seem right to force, as it were, that name above our door and have everyone continue to go by it just because some people still feel as if they're in exile from something after all this time. Wanna call yourself an Exile individually? Fine. But why label the whole place as it after so many years and not just expect everyone else to do the same but to preach it to others too?

Just as I would say the opposite. It's unfair to force a new name for our community on everyone because a few people don't like the old one anymore. If you want to call yourself "S3" or something else ingame, then go for it, but why force everyone to adopt something new when they may be invested in SSX?

It's an unwinnable point for that reason - it applies identically both ways.

At the end of the day, once this thread and any subsequent poll is said and done it's almost certainly going to be a case of one side forcing the other into something they are wholeheartedly against. There's no getting round that, it's just how majority rule works - and I'd hope that no-one is against us using the principle of majority rule for this, as it's a principle we've always adopted for everything in the past (and if people DO disagree with that it's a whole different discussion we need to have). As such, the concept of using a "OUR side of the argument shouldn't be forced" argument really won't get us anywhere.

BlueFlames wrote:The practical issue at hand isn't how we choose to see the name, but how potential recruits see it. If it puts people off, as BlackDove and M.Steiner attest, then the name is a problem that needs to be addressed.

That is something I can agree with. If, and it's a big if, that truly is the situation then we should indeed be having this discussion and looking at what we can do to resolve the problem (though I hasten to add that doesn't necessarily mean a name change - there are other options to consider).

Trouble is though, I really don't believe it does put people off. And I again come back to the point that even if we were to change our name to "The Shattered Star Gaming Community", if this point is at all valid people would still ask questions about where "Shattered Star" came from, and then you're back to regaling the very history you're apparently seeking to stop telling people about (though I myself am a proponent of us being proud of our history rather than shunning it, so I don't necessarily agree with this reason for a name change either). Unless you wanted to adopt the very "gloss over it" approach that people appear adamantly against with regards to 'Exiles', which would be more than a little hypocritical.

If anyone can bring forth actual evidence of it putting recruits off, then I'm more than willing to listen on this point. As it stands though, I consider it pretty much an unbelievable claim with no evidence behind it at all.

BlueFlames wrote:What I think is ridiculous is the desperate clinging to the exiles brand for purely emotional reasons, when the name is ineffective at best or counterproductive at worst.

I've always found this argument very odd. The very opinion that the name is ineffective/invalid/counterproductive is just as emotional a view as is the view that it is representative/valid. Neither side has the ability to take to a high horse on this point and claim that the other side is just being emotional, as you're doing the very same thing yourself.

On an overall point though, I don't actually think we're going to get anywhere with this debate having re-read this thread. Messiah nailed it right on the head with this:

Messiah wrote:We are friends. Our name doesn't change that.

But our name matters. Keeping it alienates some of us. Changing it alienates others.

That's really all there is to it. No matter what arguments are put forward, you're still alienating one group or the other and no proposals or ideas will change that.

Whilst I can see where MS is coming from with the idea for "The Shattered Star Gaming Community", it really doesn't get past this point. It's still changing the name, which alienates some (myself included) whilst favouring others. As such, it's not really middle ground at all and you'll never manage to convince the other side of it being a good idea. It'd just be like me saying to you "I understand that you don't like 'Shattered Star eXiles', and I've had a think about the problem and would like to propose 'Shattered Star Exiles' instead". It's just not getting past the fundamental point that the other side opposes.

I seriously think the best route forward is a poll and for us to get numbers. Else we'll just keep running round in circles.
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Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 4:08 pm

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Isileth wrote:
M.Steiner wrote:
Isileth wrote:1) Is the name itself actually preventing people from joining/making it harder to recruit?

Not the name itself but what it is assosiated with and why we chose to call ourselves Exiles to begin with.... A name which regardless of what some peoples interpretations of it may be these days it is still and always will be linked to our separation from the Confederation and the shit that went down which was what caused us to leave and call ourselves Exiles in the first place. There's no denying this right?..... What would exiles mean to these people? Absolutely nothing..... The Shattered Star name isn't a problem because that's who we've always been and is easy to fly. It's the exiles part which has the negative baggage attached to it.

For starters yes, I am denying that. It is in no way whatsoever linked in my mind, and as you point out it would also mean nothing (the exact same amount any other name would mean to a new recruit) to new members. That link is only in those that were involved at the time, 10 years ago.

Without causing offence which I would never set out to do on purpose, I just don't agree. Whether someone sees that link, cares for it or wants to add other meaning to the name it does not get rid of the fact that the reason we named ourselves the Exiles is because of it and for good reason. That is part of our history and the reason behind the creation of this place, that doesn't just go away and becoming meaningless because others want to see it differently or just don't care because they weren't here to see it or have anything to do with it.
I'm not trying to say that your view is completely invalid as such. If you watch a movie and when it's finished you take away from it your own interpretations of what certain things meant or what you believe happened at the end. That's fine as we all do. But what if the Director had something completely different in mind when he created it and there was a reason for it?. That his intentions behind the ending or one meaning actually meant something else entirely to what you believed yourself?. Does that make your interpretation wrong?. A little bit I think, but can you turn around and deny the meaning and intentions of the Director when he made it and what he was trying to say?. No I don't believe you can.
If the Director had made it in a way that he wanted people to take away their own interpretations of things and add their own meaning then that would be different. Like some things end a certain way because they were intended to be open ended and left up to the viewer to decide. We didn't name ourselves the Exiles just because it was a cool sounding name at the time and for everyone to take from it what they wanted. We chose that name for a reason and because everyone who was here at that time was one. The name fit who we were then and our membership too which you've said yourself is different. I don't believe the original reason we named ourselves Exiles fits anymore.


Anubis wrote:Just as I would say the opposite. It's unfair to force a new name for our community on everyone because a few people don't like the old one anymore. If you want to call yourself "S3" or something else ingame, then go for it, but why force everyone to adopt something new when they may be invested in SSX?

Whilst I can see where MS is coming from with the idea for "The Shattered Star Gaming Community", it really doesn't get past this point. It's still changing the name

Just to be clear I am not trying to sell "The Shattered Star Gaming Community" as a full name. The Gaming Community addition on the banner I did was just a design decision to show what we are that's all. The current one has Friendship on too but like this we don't go around calling ourselves the Shattered Star Exiles Friendship or anything. It's just there because it fits. I'd have left friendship on the new one I did too but it looked out of place where it is atm.
The only name I'm suggesting is "The Shattered Star". It may not have Exiles tagged on the end but the Shattered Star part is not a new name now is it?. We've always been the Shattered Star something. It just doesn't include the Exiles tag which we added when we exiled ourselves. I personally don't see how that is forcing a new name on the community mate but I'm sorry if you feel it is. I do however think continuing to label the whole place with that tag is and for people like BD expected to sell that to so many others when he doesn't believe in it himself. There's nothing new or wrong with just the Shattered Star imo.
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Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:49 pm

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M.Steiner wrote:Just to be clear I am not trying to sell "The Shattered Star Gaming Community" as a full name. The Gaming Community addition on the banner I did was just a design decision to show what we are that's all. The current one has Friendship on too but like this we don't go around calling ourselves the Shattered Star Exiles Friendship or anything. It's just there because it fits. I'd have left friendship on the new one I did too but it looked out of place where it is atm.
The only name I'm suggesting is "The Shattered Star". It may not have Exiles tagged on the end but the Shattered Star part is not a new name now is it?. We've always been the Shattered Star something. It just doesn't include the Exiles tag which we added when we exiled ourselves. I personally don't see how that is forcing a new name on the community mate but I'm sorry if you feel it is. I do however think continuing to label the whole place with that tag is and for people like BD expected to sell that to so many others when he doesn't believe in it himself. There's nothing new or wrong with just the Shattered Star imo.

Of course, I understand that it's not a firm proposal or anything :) I was just using it as a tool to serve the point, as it's the only option that's been somewhat discussed here.

The point remains the same whatever name someone thinks would be a good idea though. Even if we were to take "The Shattered Star" as you suggest, it's still a change and as such exactly what others, including myself, oppose. It really doesn't matter how similar any proposal ends up being, or whether or not it retains "Shattered Star" - my point isn't "I don't think we could come up with anything better", it's "I see no reason for us to change and would not want us to under any circumstances".

Nothing you suggest will likely make a difference as a result (no offence obviously, just being honest in a blunt fashion), and that's why I think this discussion isn't going to get us anywhere.
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Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 8:12 pm

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BlueFlames wrote:The practical issue at hand isn't how we choose to see the name, but how potential recruits see it...... If that's how it's seen to outsiders, then that's what it is.


As has happened so often in this thead it seems people are using the exact same argument for both sides. I full agree with that statement.
When I joined I at no point made a link with the name and drama, I have never spoken to anyone when talking ingame who has either. And I have never seen anyone choose their group based on the name.

The simple fact as far as I can see is for a new recruit its just a name. The only way you have a link is if either you were there for it to be formed at the time or we start dumping ancient history on new members.
Can anyone offer any evidence that the name itself is causing any trouble with new members?

M.Steiner wrote:Whether someone sees that link, cares for it or wants to add other meaning to the name it does not get rid of the fact that the reason we named ourselves the Exiles is because of it and for good reason. That is part of our history and the reason behind the creation of this place, that doesn't just go away and becoming meaningless because others want to see it differently or just don't care because they weren't here to see it or have anything to do with it.


Im sorry but thats just your opinion on the matter. Just as its my opinion that it doesn't carry any deeper meaning.
I never joined with that meaning and I never gained that meaning in my years here. Thats not incorrect or wrong. Even now during this discussion I have no link between Exiles and the split. I cant imagine anyone joining now would magically form one either.

M.Steiner wrote:It may not have Exiles tagged on the end but the Shattered Star part is not a new name now is it?. We've always been the Shattered Star something. It just doesn't include the Exiles tag which we added when we exiled ourselves. I personally don't see how that is forcing a new name on the community mate but I'm sorry if you feel it is..... There's nothing new or wrong with just the Shattered Star imo.


Well I know to me that would seem a new name. Not only have I always been a Shattered Star, but I have always been an Exile.
And again as you say, this is just opinion. But my opinion is that removing Exile would be forcing a change on the name.

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 8:44 pm

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Will leave it another day and then I'll probably add the poll option to the thread so we can see numbers. Just want to leave enough time to hear some other peoples thoughts who haven't come and posted yet, before it just comes down to voting for or against :)

Do these poll options sound alright?

  • I still see myself as an Exile and believe that the name is still representative of myself and the group too ~ I vote to keep the "Exiles" tag.
  • I no longer consider myself or our group to be Exiled from anything anymore and feel it is inappropriate for us to keep it ~ I vote to remove the "Exiles" tag.
  • I don't mind either way and will be happy with whatever is decided
Poll options can be this long right? lol. Tried to keep them simple :)
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:27 pm

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I'd reword the "inappropriate" bit of the second option myself. Some may feel it irrelevant, but not inappropriate if you know what I mean. Try and be a little more open with that one, like you have the others, if that makes sense.

Other than that, those options look fine to me :)
"Perhaps this is what I have always wished for since that day. The loss and destruction of all. That's right, one must destroy before creating. In that case, if my conscience becomes a hindrance to me, then I will simply erase it. I have no other choice but to move forward....therefore!" - Lelouch vi Britannia/Zero, Code Geass: Hangyaku no Lelouch

Forever an eXile and proud of it!

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:31 pm

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M.Steiner wrote:
  • I still see myself as an Exile and believe that the name is still representative of myself and the group too ~ I vote to keep the "Exiles" tag.
  • I no longer consider myself or our group to be Exiled from anything anymore and feel it is inappropriate for us to keep it ~ I vote to remove the "Exiles" tag.
  • I don't mind either way and will be happy with whatever is decided
Poll options can be this long right? lol. Tried to keep them simple :)


I think it is best to keep it simple. Indicating that a vote carries a specific rationale is misleadintg.

How about:

I want to keep the Exiles name.
I don't want to keep the Exiles name.
I don't care.
"All I was trying to do was get people to want to make their own new ring of light so that it is forever a name with meaning and substance ...." - BlackDove the Beneficent

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:41 pm

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Yeah I think just the simple options is the best choice. Let people pick one based on their own view rather than suggest the argument for each one.

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:12 pm

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Will put the poll up late tonight/early hours then but I think most of us believe it's an important subject matter regardless of which side of the fence we're on. I didn't think for something like this it would be a good idea to open a poll at the very start before we got to hear what each of us thought and exactly why we were voting that way first. It's too easy when there's a poll for people just to come and vote without actually reading all of the arguments presented and adding to the discussion themselves. I can think of at least 10 people who haven't added their input yet and that's just off the top of my head, a little disappointing I must admit. Don't worry if it's just "I don't mind and this is why". You're identifying yourself as an Exile too so your opinion matters just as much as everyone elses here and it'd be nice to hear it before we get down to the actual vote itself ;)
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:40 am

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Poll added :)
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 8:46 pm

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Can I ask a serious question? This is mainly to Anny who was here before, during and after the split and for anyone else who was as well who also shares his opinion. Rather than those of you who joined after the conception.
Just to quickly sum up my own viewpoint on the matter and my understanding of the turn of events for those just joining us in this discussion and haven't already read my previous, lengthy posts:

Before there was the Shattered Star Exiles there was the Shattered Star Confederation. In 2004 a group of us decided we could no longer remain in the SSC anymore and for our own individual reasons we left that place and its people behind. Upon leaving however we remained as the Shattered Stars we believed "we" still were except in Exile, and so we became the Shattered Star Exiles.
The SSC and the SSX coexisted and remained separate for 2 years after this split (the SSX owning shatteredstar.org and the SSC having shatteredstar.com etc) but in 2006 (?) the SSC closed its doors and ceased to exist. This left the people here of the Shattered Star Exiles as the only Shattered Stars remaining. Some of the post-split SSC members moved on to form a new group together called RIGHT and eventually the SSX obtained the rest of the Shattered Star domains which up until this point the SSC had continued to own.

My opinion is that ever since the SSC closed, left us as the only remaining Shattered Stars and we regained all of the domains that this group was no longer in Exile like we were when we left and we became separated and for this reason I think it is both sad and inappropriate for us as a group to continue to be known as such. This is why I suggested that we finally move on from this by removing the Exiles tag along with the negative assosiation it has with our split and its original naming and simply be known as "The Shattered Star". We were Exiles once but I don't think we are anymore and I do not think the "Exiles" is an accurate representation of who are now now. - This is how I see things.
My question is. If you still think the Exiles tag is still appropriate and representative of the group and not just yourself, when you were here when we left the SSC and named ourselves the Exiles to begin with. Why is that?. How do you see the turn of events which lead to our name and what it meant? and what relevance does it have today for the group?. Why do we need to keep it?. Just to help me understand :)
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:10 pm

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I think the name can mean what you want it to mean. Exiles from our split. Exiles from the "typical" gaming community.

I don't have a lot of room to argue any one position.

But I made the same arguments to BD years ago, he didn't like the answer then, either.
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Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:15 pm

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M.Steiner wrote:My question is. If you still think the Exiles tag is still appropriate and representative of the group and not just yourself, when you were here when we left the SSC and named ourselves the Exiles to begin with. Why is that?. How do you see the turn of events which lead to our name and what it meant? and what relevance does it have today for the group?. Why do we need to keep it?. Just to help me understand :)

I'll try to answer as best I can. I may take a roundabout path to get to my answer though!

The thing you have to remember with myself and the split is that I came at it differently. I was still relatively new to the SSC when it happened - whilst I'd been a member for around 8-9 months I think I'd only really been an *active* member for 3-4 months. As such, whilst I knew and was friendly with those who frequented IRC and those I knew from ingame, I wasn't completely familiar with those who didn't. Whilst I knew there was tension from several threads in the Mods Forum, I didn't really "get" that it was as bad as it eventually proved to be.

I actually took a week "offline" when the split happened, and came back to find most people I knew had left. Still, even when it had been explained to me I didn't leave immediately. Whilst I could see aspects of what the issues were, I didn't know the people involved well enough (or for long enough) to leave because of them. In truth, I never really had much of a problem with the people myself, and I liked the SSC and what it stood for.

So I stayed, for what I think must have been at least a couple of weeks (sorry, can't remember exactly how long and checking the forums to confirm is no longer an option). The reason I left was because a few weeks after the split the people left in charge started publically expressing that they were planning to rewrite the Ideals and thus the foundations of the place to (what I felt was) better suit them and the way they wanted things to be. I didn't agree with that, and I still don't, so I left to come here so that I could continue to play games with my friends in an environment where the original concepts that I both agreed with and was invested in lived on.

The reason I explain all the above is so that you can see that my path "to exile" was not the same as yours, or many of those who originally founded this place. I have always felt that a lot of people left because of the people that were still there (something you touch on), or even because said people were doing things they didn't agree with. I didn't. Whilst proposals WERE being made regarding things I disagreed with at the time, I left simply left due to concepts. The idea that rewriting your principles solves your problems, that ganking and griefing in games is ok, etc.

I have never once felt that we were "exiles of the SSC", or even exiles of "Shattered Star" for that reason. Imo, we are a group that chose to distance ourselves from what is almost now the mainstream - the negative side of gaming and/or the gaming community. Our "philosophy", which is across all pages of the main site, sums it up exactly right for me:

We choose to be different.
We refuse to play unfairly against others.
We refuse to grief other players.
We never forget it's just a game.
We want to be a part of a group where friendship and fun come first.


This community has always been the place that philosophy paints us as. Somewhere that stood for friendship, fun and fairness (though we've had our arguments from time to time). We've always tried to stand against everything that that is almost the norm now in many places, and I hope we always will. THAT is why "Exiles" is and always will be absolutely relevant and appropriate to us. Because as long as we are all here, we're all choosing to be apart from the herd - we're still actively making that choice to exile ourselves every day.

As I've said before, I can understand why people who don't look at the name through the same window as I do see it differently and want to change. Everyone has their own interpretation of who we are and why we're here, so it's only natural. But our name is who we are, and it's who we'll always be. We've accumulated 8 years of history under this banner, and quite rightly have proudly proclaimed ourselves to be exiles from all that is wrong with the gaming community in general. Changing that name not only changes our identity, which I consider to be wrong to start with, but also means that we're saying we're no longer proud to be what we are - and that is something that deeply unsettles me. We need to stay as we are because it's who we are.

Not really sure how to explain it beyond that. Does that answer your question? Sorry for the essay :lol:
"Perhaps this is what I have always wished for since that day. The loss and destruction of all. That's right, one must destroy before creating. In that case, if my conscience becomes a hindrance to me, then I will simply erase it. I have no other choice but to move forward....therefore!" - Lelouch vi Britannia/Zero, Code Geass: Hangyaku no Lelouch

Forever an eXile and proud of it!

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 1:12 am

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Yep, ty for taking the time to try and explain your side mate. Tis much appreciated :)
When you've viewed something one way for nearly a decade it's quite hard to look at it from another angle when the whole meaning behind the online identity you've had for that amount of time has been based around another perspective. Whilst I know some people here left and became Exiles because of people that was never the case for me. It was more to do with the place it was becoming which I disagreed with and the fact that so many of my friends were leaving too. Regardless of reasoning though I've always taken it as read that for all of us (that was here at the time) the Exiles name would still be associated with the split itself and all of us leaving and then forming this place. I never really considered that some peoples path to Exile and view of the Exiles name from the start may have been down to going against principles, rule changing to fit a situation or distancing ourselves from things of that nature and negativity etc rather than being about the split itself. I could understand that everyone had their own reasons for leaving but up until this day I have always assumed that when it came down to it the Exiles name would still be seen as being chosen because we all left but kept the Shattered Star name. I'll hold my hands up though and say that was quite ignorant of me.

Looking at it like this I can see how difficult this poll really is for us all. In a way I kinda wish I hadn't posted it because no one persons opinion is wrong at the end of the day. As much as I believed what I was saying in my opening post and subsequent ones to be the case, I can't begin to tell people like yourself what Exiles should mean to you and why just because I've always believed that to be true myself. Just as you or anyone else can't say the same back to me. It's a tough one and unfortunately I can't really roll the clock back to Monday before I brought this all up.
I do still see the name being a direct link to the split and believe that depending on how us (or outsiders) may look at that you could indeed get a negative impression from it but I can completely understand where you're coming from now and I was admittedly having a hard time doing so before you explained a bit more why you felt that way. I do also agree with everything you said about being proud of who we are and the history we have built under our name.


I just hope we're all big enough to agree to disagree on what we believe the naming of Exiles was to mean for the group when we created this place and whether we personally feel that it still represents us the same today as it did back then.
I can't really take the thread or poll away now as what's done is done and I still believe it was the right thing to do by bringing it to peoples attention. We're all friends though so we should respect how each of us feel even if we see it differently ourselves.
I do still think change would be a positive thing but I have been swayed the other way a bit by a few of the things you touched upon. Should we still keep the name though I certainly won't hold it against anyone or be upset about it, can appreciate that for some of you it still holds the same meaning now as it did when you joined as you've always seen it differently to me to start with. I wouldn't want to take that away from you guys. :)
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 3:11 am

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A few things..
I'm somewhat distanced from most of you now, but, for a mostly exterior perspective (from someone who understands the initial members, and the feelings of those who arrived later (*having recruited a couple of them..)) without trying to 'sway' people too much either way, if you take anything from this post then let it be this;

Your culture will not change with a name change, we have already proven that.
Reinvention is a good thing. - It allows growth and exploration.

This group was handicapped by self imposed rules(that didn't always make sense) and judgemental arbitrary decision makers, considering only 9 people have voted and you have an actual tie (as if), you should ask yourself both 'what is in a name?' and 'what is our identity?'

Much akin to what Ed was saying. It doesn't terribly matter.

I think if I had stayed heavily involved in SSX I would definitely want to see a return to using the SSC tag, Shattered Star Community actually sounds nice to me, but that shouldn't be construed as a vote (*nor will I be voting.. not really my place any more).


Traditionally, when in a group or doing something with BD, in the past, I have been peacemaker for him, I've kept other people calm and a mild gap between him and them, as he can come over a little forceful.
This often appears like something along the lines of holding him back for the benefit of others. This time, you should all perhaps pay a little more attention to him, well worded or not, his point was the most important.
Recruitment is as much about sales pitch as it is about vouchsafing the recruitee, if the recruiter has issues with the concept they're pitching then it will always be skewed, even if they do their best to explain it away.

For those of you who haven't been here the whole time, the 'Exile' part of the name was initially a wound worn like a badge of honour for a few of those who were.
With the dissolution of the SSC that badge doesn't have much meaning any more, and it is simply the reminder of a wound.

That's probably all the semi-coherent babble I have in me at 3am, bed time.
"Then, to hide their frailty, they hurt those who are kind.
I whisper farewell to this ugly world and dance nimbly with brilliant wings of red."

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:36 am

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hey QD very long time no see,

I just got word trough facebook that the discussion is getting heated. Since it's not posted here I have no clue about the harshness of words uttered. I feel I need to add my 2 cents of thoughts here as well.

I was in the SSC originally. QD is the one that got me in trough Neocron. I have seen the original thread and I couldn't get my mind around the real problem at that time, but all my mates from SSC that were playing neocron moved to the exiles and I followed.

I followed because at the time I saw reason in the "we're friends just playing some games together" a kind of loosely coupled community.

Over the years I've accustomed myself to the SSX name, but to outsiders the whole why are we exiled part is totally irrelevant, and more so now than before. The people that we left behind stopped the SSC all together and moved on with their lives.

Exiles does have a rather negative connotation and it undermines our Friendship part.

What I do not get is that people seem to be very strongly attached and invested in our exile name, I'd rather see us more invested in friendship.

I see no need in this discussion to come between that friendship neither. So to whom it may concern, I wasn't there on IRC, but take a minute to cool down, take a few steps backwards and treat this subject with an open mind as objectively as you can.

Either way, there are no winners nor losers in this debate, because we are one group, and last time I checked we're a close nit bunch of motherf*ckers that in the end just like to boot up a game, see some familiar faces and have some f*cking fun!

Now let's see how the BB board censors me :p :D

edit: inserted stars to overcome the sensorship :)

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:23 am

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Isileth
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Lets be clear, no matter what the name is I will always love what the group is. And while the discussion has been heated and passionate I dont think its anything thats been personal or would harm the friendship of the group. Rightly we put across our different views and after the outcome we will happily carry on attempting to kill each other in video games as normal :).

Just a extra point that responds a bit to some of the new posts. When it comes to why I am attached to the exiles "tag" the answer would be im not. And here is where I can completely see and understand why there would be a difference to members before and after the split.
To me its not a tag.
Obviously those that were Shattered Star Confederation and then changed to Shattered Star Exiles would naturally see the Shattered Star as being the key part and the extra bit on the end a tag and something changeable. However as someone who as only ever been an exile I always read it as one thing "Shattered Star Exiles". Not Shattered Star - Exiles or Shattered Star: Exiles or anything that might have suggested to me that was any less key to the name and who we are. As such I hope that makes it a bit clearer to some why people like me have attached themselves to the "tag" exiles. It was always part of the name and not something stuck onto the end of it.

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 1:57 pm

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Thanks for coming by and sharing your 2c as well, QD. :thumb:
I know you've mostly stayed away for a while now and don't believe it's your place to vote anymore but, and I can't speak for everyone but myself on this, had you actually wanted to vote I wouldn't have seen a problem with that at all personally. Even though you distanced yourself I can't say that I've ever considered you as being any less of a member (or even stopped becoming one) and whether you still feel like you are or have a right to have your say know that you will always be welcome here. As I said on IRC last night/early this morning it has been really nice seeing ya ;)
I think a lot will value your opinion and take on the recruitment subject too personally. Afterall, putting any of the needless drama behind from the past, yourself and BD are the best group leaders and recruiters this place ever had. Sure there are others here who've had experience with both but I don't believe we've ever had anyone else quite as experienced and as good at that job as you two. Sometimes I wish we could turn back the clock :)

Also I completely agree Sl33py. No reason why any of this should come between friendship or get heated. I don't think the thread itself has really, more a clash of opinions and everyone being passionate about the way they see things but it did get that way on IRC a little last night (not by me :p). I don't think any offence was intended last night but we just need to remind ourselves that we are all friends here and need to remember that when we're trying to put our points across. I don't think any of us wants to see a return to the old days where we had lots of drama, fallouts and upset over silly things or subjects which could have been handled better, differently or left alone completely. I certainly didn't want to cause any by bringing the subject up :)

Thanks for chipping in with your thoughts as well Ed/Sl33py. The more people the better, don't be shy!
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 4:23 pm

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You guys will make this or break this. The name won't change a thing.
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Re: Exiles

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 5:22 pm

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It's time.


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