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Do you agree with my proposal below?

Poll ended at Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:58 pm

Yes
9
64%
No
5
36%
 
Total votes: 14

Our Community

PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:58 pm

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M.Steiner
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I didn't really want to be the one to bring this subject up again but since we always said we'd revisit it given the previous split vote, now is as good a time as any I think. It has been well over 2 years since we last had this discussion, believe it or not.

Star Citizen may not be 100% complete and out the door as a finished project yet but it is already becoming a thing for us and looks certain to be the home of our next group if all goes to plan. A few of us have already been playing Arena Commander together in there on a regular basis (more are welcome to come join!), we've been sharing stuff over on our YouTube page along with social media and yesterday we opened up our Star Citizen organization. We're going to be known as the Shattered Star Community in there, SSC as short.

When we were planning to go by the name "Burning Stars" and I was uploading videos to YouTube to that affect, I made a separate version of our YouTube intro with a little note to say that the Burning Stars were "A Squadron of the Shattered Star Exiles". So as to not confuse people seeing the Exiles name elsewhere. Going back to do the same for the Shattered Star Community is going to sound a little weird I think.

  • Shattered Star Community - A Squadron of the Shattered Star Exiles.
If it were written the other way around it would look and sound fine though:

  • Shattered Star Exiles - A Squadron of the Shattered Star Community
  • Burning Stars - A Squadron of the Shattered Star Community
  • etc.
But having Community be a group/division/squad of the Exiles sounds really weird and confusing to me.


The proposal.
We have the "Shattered Star Community" above the door here and re-claim our =SSC= tag along with it. The group as a whole would be identified as the community it is rather than having the Exiles up there which we can all agree from previous discussions has very split meaning and importance among us all. Exiles means more to some than others, in some cases has a different meaning or intention attached to it entirely and some of us don't care for the name at all or identifying ourselves with it. I think we're always going to be split on the Exiles name and our previous talks have pretty much proved that. As such I want to try and stay clear from us focusing on that too much as it's something we'll never agree on. Whatever the case, in the 11½ years I have been part of the the Shattered Star we have always referred to our home and our group as a whole as the "community". It's what we are and always have been.

If one of our groups in the future wants to go by a particular tag/name, that's cool. Like the examples above, one of our groups could decide to continue using the Exiles name if they wanted but we bring people back into the "community". The Shattered Star Exiles in X Game(s) would be a group(s) within the Shattered Star Community. Same again with the Burning Stars example, Exiles of the Shattered Star, The Shattered Star, or any other variations people choose to use in the games they play. We as a whole all come together as the Shattered Star Community. SSC.


Thoughts?
Poll will run for 2 weeks. Thanks in advance for reading and voting :)
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Re: Our Community

PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:16 pm

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SL33PY
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I'm all for it (if you see one vote on yes, that'd be me)

In the thread M.S. is referring to I actually proposed the same thing:

viewtopic.php?p=66070#p66070

SL33PY wrote:I've been thinking a bit on the possible future name if or when the eXiles part would be dropped. We could go back to be known as SSC standing for the Shattered Star Community.

I wouldn't call it gaming community, because we are more than that. We have a great deal of people enjoying anime. We have artists and music producers who also have a voice in our group.

And if need be, I'll even throw in some new swag for Messiah so he can replace his outdated swag without the financial burden of the embroidery font, whatever that may be. :thumb:


Messiah, the offer still stands :D :thumb:

Re: Our Community

PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 6:45 pm

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BlackDove
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I don't think I need to say anything on the subject.

Re: Our Community

PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 7:03 pm

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NF
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Now it feels like home again. . Good to see everyone's favourite topic is still alive and well!

Having been absent for so long I'm not feeling like I should have a say in this nd instead it should fall to those who have kept the group alive.

As a result I'm abstaining and will be happy with whatever is decided.
NF

Re: Our Community

PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 7:42 pm

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Rock-n-Roll
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This proposal just sounds altogether too reasonable to object to.

Re: Our Community

PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 8:02 pm

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Anubis
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Sigh, this again? How frustrating.

As I'm sure absolutely no-one will be surprised with, I vote a definitive no. My reasons have not changed from either of the last two times this was debated, when No won a majority of votes on both occasions.

I think it's well worth people having a re-read of those threads before they vote, if they haven't already, as there are a lot of points - some good, and some not so good - for both sides detailed there. All of the major arguments were detailed there long ago, and there's really no new ground to tread here:

January 2009 - "Delayed Common Sense?"
September 2012 - "Exiles"

I still see absolutely no issue with the name, and remain very disbelieving that it is an issue or barrier at all when it comes to growth, recruitment, or representing ourselves in any way. Without any evidence of that, the entire argument for change really falls away. As Mech so skillfully put in 2012:
Mechanus wrote:In my opinion a community is defined by the people within, not the name on the tin. Would it matter any if SSX was called Space Gerbils in Purple Tights yet the people were the same? How many people join a group because of the name instead of those who make up the group? I can say, for myself, that when I joined this community it had nothing to do with the name and it was merely an afterthought. Same for every gaming community I've joined in the past or present or will join in the future. As long as the people and the atmosphere remain then the name can be whatever you want. The name may be what people see, but it's the membership that they remember and that means more to me than anything else.


I am very attached to name, and as I indicated here would be very disappointed if we changed it. We have a lot of history with this name, and its our identity - we ARE exiles in many ways, far more than the old "we left the SSC" reasoning. I happen to value that history and our identity very dearly, and consider opting to just throw that aside to be disappointing at best. So no, I can't agree with this. And I'll stand by that no matter how many times it gets asked.


And on that note, I'm disappointed, though not surprised, to see this rear its head again. We've had this discussion twice now, and both times the option to change lost by clear majority according to the rules of the vote. It frustrates me that the concept of abiding by the will of the people just seems to fall by the wayside when it comes to this issue, and people seem set on just asking again and again until they get the answer they want.

Heck, last time people were shouting "we lost the vote, but lets change anyway". It's not really what I generally expect of this place if I'm honest, and it's sad that this will never stop until people get the name changed despite consensus being reached against the decision multiple times.

It's not how a democratic community as we are should work, and it's a very unfair approach to take towards issues unless arguments and reasoning have substantially changed, which in this case they haven't. Just continually asking in the hope that less people around will mean less votes in one direction...well, it's just disappointing. Meh...
"Perhaps this is what I have always wished for since that day. The loss and destruction of all. That's right, one must destroy before creating. In that case, if my conscience becomes a hindrance to me, then I will simply erase it. I have no other choice but to move forward....therefore!" - Lelouch vi Britannia/Zero, Code Geass: Hangyaku no Lelouch

Forever an eXile and proud of it!

Re: Our Community

PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 8:14 pm

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M.Steiner
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Anubis wrote:And on that note, I'm disappointed, though not surprised, to see this rear its head again. We've had this discussion twice now, and both times the option to change lost by clear majority according to the rules of the vote. It frustrates me that the concept of abiding by the will of the people just seems to fall by the wayside when it comes to this issue, and people seem set on just asking again and again until they get the answer they want.

Can I quote you from 2012?

Anubis wrote:As much as I do not agree with the proposal, on the back of this vote I feel the issue of name change needs to be revisited at some point in the future. I think there needs to be a suitable period before that occurs, considering the results of this vote, but with the results being so close I don't think it would be feasible (let alone fair) for us to try and say that this result is "the final result". Any proposal would still need to pass a public vote of course, but with opinion so split it should at the very least get another opportunity to make its case. Whilst I'm not in favour of a "just keep asking until they say yes" approach, when opinion is so close I do not think proposals can be closed off definitively.


:)
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Re: Our Community

PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 8:30 pm

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Anubis
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The majority was much larger the first time, I should remind you in kind, and after that the issue should never have been brought up a second time let alone a third. And what I said there isn't really any different to what I've said here - I disagree with just asking as many times as it takes to get a desired answer, no matter what the issue is.

Not saying you can't do it, just disappointed and not really that surprised.
"Perhaps this is what I have always wished for since that day. The loss and destruction of all. That's right, one must destroy before creating. In that case, if my conscience becomes a hindrance to me, then I will simply erase it. I have no other choice but to move forward....therefore!" - Lelouch vi Britannia/Zero, Code Geass: Hangyaku no Lelouch

Forever an eXile and proud of it!

Re: Our Community

PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 8:35 pm

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BlackDove
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Are you reading your own quote?

What you're saying makes no sense.

Re: Our Community

PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 11:58 pm

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M.Steiner
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Can I ask a question of someone please?. We currently have 3 members voting against this - one of which is Anny, the another 2 are anonymous. One of you guys voted in favour of my proposal but have since switched your vote to being in disagreeance with it. Can I ask why?. I haven't edited or changed the proposal since you voted yes for it so I'm a little puzzled as to why you've decided against it. What changed?. You don't have to answer, just thought I would ask :)

I want to keep everything civil without any drama this time and not get too bogged down with the meanings and importance each of us do or do not hold over the name. As I say, the Exiles name is something we'll never agree on which is why I came at this with the above (which I believed was well thought out and fair) proposal. Regardless of our thoughts and opinions on that, we are a community and that's something we can all agree on, right?. Exiles, Burning Stars and whatever else can all come together under that roof for those who wish to use those names on a group/individual basis. A community is what we are. Always have been. Always will be.

Thanks to those of you who have voted so far :thumb:
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Re: Our Community

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 12:16 am

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Anubis
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M.Steiner wrote:I want to keep everything civil without any drama this time and not get too bogged down with the meanings and importance each of us do or do not hold over the name. As I say, the Exiles name is something we'll never agree on which is why I came at this with the above (which I believed was well thought out and fair) proposal. Regardless of our thoughts and opinions on that, we are a community and that's something we can all agree on, right?. Exiles, Burning Stars and whatever else can all come together under that roof for those who wish to use those names on a group/individual basis. A community is what we are. Always have been. Always will be.

The problem is, putting all opinions of my own detailed above aside for a moment, that I'm not sure you can separate them.

You still are asking to change the name when you boil it all down (of our overarching group, at the very least), and as such the question of what the name means and how important it is is VERY relevant.

Groups can already call themselves whatever they please (within reason), as we have in the past with WoW-EU's "Exiles of the Shattered Star", so that's not really a selling point in favour of change either way as it's a precedent already established. And, as I highlighted with Mech's quote above, you don't need to be named "Community" to be a group of good people that others want to join and play with (whether or not it's more representative or not is another matter). Taking those points to the side, you therefore have the question of why we're called eXiles now, what it means, and whether or not we would be better represented with a change.

I get that you've tried to approach it differently, because it does cause disagreements every time it's discussed, but ultimately you can't ask people to consider changing the name of this place and say "by the way, please don't consider what it means currently". It's the same question really - especially given what made so many of us vote No in the past is precisely because of the meaning.

Just my opinion of course, unless I'm misunderstanding your meaning on that point? :)
"Perhaps this is what I have always wished for since that day. The loss and destruction of all. That's right, one must destroy before creating. In that case, if my conscience becomes a hindrance to me, then I will simply erase it. I have no other choice but to move forward....therefore!" - Lelouch vi Britannia/Zero, Code Geass: Hangyaku no Lelouch

Forever an eXile and proud of it!

Re: Our Community

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:08 am

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M.Steiner
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Fair points :)

The thing with Exiles though is it is very identifying whether one wants it to be or not. With each of us holding different meaning over it (or not in some cases) and being so split over it, it seems a shame to continue identifying our community as a whole with a name that we've proved to be divided on. Burning Stars could be a group within the Exiles, yep (and Community too, though it would sound very odd that way around), but then that continues to paint the whole community and every member within it as an Exile.

Whether our name has been the Shattered Star Confederation or Exiles we have always referred to the place we have here and our greater group as the community. To switch and use this above our door makes perfect sense to me. It's fair, it's simple and I feel it fits exactly who and what we are and always have been. It's also broad enough to allow freedom for those who wish to continue going by the Exiles name etc in the games they play without forcing it on others. To have a Shattered Star Community within the Shattered Star Exiles on the other hand reads like a typo heh.
Putting the question above aside as to whether you agree to the actual proposal or not and I suppose one could try and switch it and say it would be the same vice versa (that we'd be forcing those who vote no to do the same with Shattered Star Community). However I think it's different. Whatever name we have had above the door past or present there won't be a single person here who doesn't agree that we are a community. Can everyone here say the same about Exiles?.

Let those who wish to continue identifying themselves as Exiles, Burning Stars, Shattered Stars or whatever in their games, do so. The place as a whole would continue to be the community it has always been, just now in name too. Not with a community wide name which we don't all agree on. If everyone gives it a little thought and with an open mind I honestly think this is fairest way on everyone. I'm obviously on the other side of the fence here but that's how I wanted to approach this rather than focusing too much on what we have in previous discussions :)
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Re: Our Community

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:40 am

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Isileth
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As in the previous instances that this has come up I am firmly against such a change.

I'm at the point now where its getting a little tiring writing out the exact same arguments so I intend to keep this shorter than the last.

I have only ever been a Shattered Star Exile, the tag SSC holds absolutely zero meaning to me. If anything it holds negative connotations because the only time I ever really heard it as a member of SSX was talking about old drama and moaning about old members and how the group was ran back then.

Secondly there does seem to be some strange idea that the name is holding us back and if we only changed the name our numbers would soar. I really cant see this as anything but looking back on the past when our membership was full and active and completely missing the point as to why. Back then we had a much younger membership, less kids and careers, and a hell of a lot more time to spend on games.

Thirdly, and to me quite disappointingly, this does seem to be people who lost the vote in the past trying to sneak their way in through the back door. Rather than creating a group in a new game under the proper SSX banner they have created it with the name they want and then turned round saying everyone else has to use it now. To me this seems totally against what our group stands for.
How long after we have been forced to use Community before someone comes along and says "Well its already SSC we might as well go back to using confederation as well."?

Re: Our Community

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:28 am

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Kon
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It's important to consider this from the perspective of growth and what it could mean for the future of this place. At our peak, we had over 1000 members across many games. The last new regular member to join us is Mechanus, who met us in Cyber Nations as an ally and joined in 2009.

We've gained no active members in this decade.

In 2015, we're finally doing something about it. Establishing a social media presence, modernizing the website, producing content for Youtube or Twitch. Many of us are very excited about Star Citizen, and that group has become something for people to rally around.

We are no longer simply a cross-game clan or guild. We are growing into a multimedia gaming community. A rebranding of the group seems appropriate in light of the many changes we're making these days.

We all hope that 2015 is to be a new era for this community, just as significant as 1997 or 2004.

I also have a connection to the Exiles name, but it's not reflective of who we are as an organization anymore. Just as with the Confederation, it's time to turn the page and begin a new chapter in our history. Some of us may always be exiles, but it's time for us to take that experience and use it to build something fresh and better than ever before.

The name change will not fix all of our problems. It is up to us to breath new life into this place. Play together, recruit new members, and continue the social media activity that is so important to our evolution into a modern group.

I believe we can do it. If you think so too, vote "Yes" for a new name which reflects that optimism and the drive to create a new chapter in our history.
"We are the facilitators of our own creative evolution."

Re: Our Community

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:40 am

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M.Steiner
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Isileth wrote:Rather than creating a group in a new game under the proper SSX banner they have created it with the name they want and then turned round saying everyone else has to use it now. To me this seems totally against what our group stands for.
How long after we have been forced to use Community before someone comes along and says "Well its already SSC we might as well go back to using confederation as well."?

No.
As I pointed out on IRC, we had always planned to use the Burning Stars name in Star Citizen. "The Burning Stars have returned" was on the forum index since the day the SC forum was opened last year, it was within the SC forum itself, has been mentioned on IRC and whilst not all of our vids have used the "Burning Stars" video intro, every one of our SC co-op vids have been labeled Burning Stars. It was never a secret that we were going to go by that name in SC. You obviously never noticed it on the forum to object and haven't been following our YouTube content, Twitter, Facebook, main site news or the social feed on the main site either otherwise you wouldn't be oblivious to us using a name other than Exiles in there. This is not our fault is it?. We were never hiding it or trying to slip something under the rug, dude :)
The Shattered Star Community name in SC was a last minute decision and had no relation to me bringing this proposal to you all. Just the more I thought of it the more it made sense, and so I thought now was a good time to revist the subject since we said at the time that we probably should. Even Anny himself did as I quoted above.


The Exiles name holds different meaning and history to you than what it does to me. Everyone here feels differently and that's the point I've been trying to make. You use the SSC tag as an argument against using that because of negativity you yourself associate with it and its history and yet you vote against the proposal I've made and for us to continue identifying the entire group with a name that some of us feels exactly the same way about. I don't really understand that but ok.

Forget the name we have now or have used in the past for a moment. What are we?. What is this place?. We're a community, right?. We have always referred to this place as such, have we not?. Whether Confederation or Exiles we have always been a community. Why hold on to a name which has such divided meaning, relevance and importance among us all?. Why not name our community as a whole as just that and keep things simple?.

My point of suggesting/allowing individuals and groups to continue identifying themselves as Exiles, Burning Stars, Shattered Stars or whatever in the games we play is trying to make it fair on everyone whilst bringing everyone together within the community. Doing the same with Community within Exiles sounds retarded. We'd just be switching the "community" we are into the name itself. Why have everyone here forced to identify themselves with a name we're so split over rather than just those of you who choose to?. Without going over old ground again the Exiles name for me lost its meaning the day the remaining SSC folk shut up shop and moved on, leaving us guys as the the only Shattered Stars. Why should I identify myself as an exile when that is how I associate the name and its inception?. I'm not asking people to completely abandon exiles if they don't want to (and continue using that on a group/individual basis within the community) but you're voting for me to continue to be known and identify myself as an exile when I don't believe I am due to how I view the name.

Whatever that name, we are a community. The fact and difficulty is is that there is no wrong view of how we all look and feel about the Exiles name. I'm not wrong for associating it the way I do and neither are people like you or Anny who view it completely different. We all feel differently and that is the point really. Every single person here can agree that we are a community though and that each and every one of us is a member of one. We can't all say the same about the Exiles name and never will be able to. Why continue to refer to the entire group as such and not just the community we are? :)

[Edit: made a couple of edits :)]
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Re: Our Community

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:34 am

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Isileth
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My point wasn't that it was hidden, its that it was done at all. Precisely knowing the fact it would inevitably lead to confusion over the name and leading to this discussion.
Whats the point of having a group name if we don't play under it? All we are doing there is driving a split between different groups and not bringing ourselves together.

Of course everyone will have their connection (or not) to the name but you have offered this up as a compromise when it clearly isn't. Its fairly obvious the same people who have for years been pushing for us to change to Confederation are also pushing for us to move to a system where the tag will be SSC and you don't even have to use the main group name. Quite clearly the name Shattered Star Confederation is hell of a lot more fitting of the SSC tag than Exiles ever could be. Its not a compromise its a backdoor return to the old name and identity.

As for us being a community, every group/guild is a community thats what a community is. It seems a strange argument to suggest we need to declare that our community is a community in the name. The name is the banner that everyone joins together under, its kind of implied. (Incase there wasn't enough community in that paragraph community community community)

As for the end of that line "Why not name our community as a whole as just that and keep things simple?". Well that seems rather at odds with your next paragraph about each group being able to have a different name. Thats the exact opposite of bringing us all together under one name and is certainly much less simple than having a single group name that we use in all our games.

Re: Our Community

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 8:04 am

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M.Steiner
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Isileth wrote:My point wasn't that it was hidden, its that it was done at all. Precisely knowing the fact it would inevitably lead to confusion over the name and leading to this discussion.
Whats the point of having a group name if we don't play under it? All we are doing there is driving a split between different groups and not bringing ourselves together.

Which is precisely why I made sure our Burning Stars videos said the following: (click to enlarge)
Image
Going by slightly different names in a group within the greater community is not something new here. We just haven't applied it in a long time but then we haven't DONE anything in a long time either. Some of us here are actively trying to change that.
I use the Burning Stars intro design as the example because we do not have one with the SSC identity on it yet. SSC was never on the cards until moments before the SC organization was created a few days ago.

Isileth wrote:Of course everyone will have their connection (or not) to the name but you have offered this up as a compromise when it clearly isn't. Its fairly obvious the same people who have for years been pushing for us to change to Confederation are also pushing for us to move to a system where the tag will be SSC and you don't even have to use the main group name. Quite clearly the name Shattered Star Confederation is hell of a lot more fitting of the SSC tag than Exiles ever could be. Its not a compromise its a backdoor return to the old name and identity.

I wanted to lay off the drama here but after all I do for this place I am insulted that you would insinuate something so underhand of me. If we had really been planning this as a backdoor return to our SSC identity why on earth would I have spent hours of my time creating graphics and videos with SSX/Exiles slapped all over them (and Burning Stars ofc)? and designing this new site and forum with Anny rather than waiting until such a thing passed?. Why have I spent so much time on twitter and expanding our YouTube channel under the name of the Exiles whilst trying to get our name out there if we had been planning what you suggest?. To waste my time?. Please.

Isileth wrote:As for us being a community, every group/guild is a community thats what a community is. It seems a strange argument to suggest we need to declare that our community is a community in the name. The name is the banner that everyone joins together under, its kind of implied.

I came at community simply because that is what this place is and that's something we can all agree on. Unlike the Exiles name. We can both consider ourselves members of the community here. Why should every person and group here declare themselves an Exile or in Exile if they don't feel the same way as you?. Community is fair.
The fact that it's also a return to the tag we left behind just happens to be a bonus for some of us (or a negative to you). That is not why I suggested it.

Isileth wrote:As for the end of that line "Why not name our community as a whole as just that and keep things simple?". Well that seems rather at odds with your next paragraph about each group being able to have a different name. Thats the exact opposite of bringing us all together under one name and is certainly much less simple than having a single group name that we use in all our games.

I was just trying to keep it as fair as possible and allow freedom for those, like you, who insist on staying attached to a nametag we've proved to be divided on to continue doing so if you wish. Variations in our individual group names allows that, if people want, whilst still coming together as a community and under that name. Would I prefer if every single group named themselves as such? Sure. But I'm trying to be reasonable here which you are clearly not. You have not only voted against the proposal made but have said you're also against people playing under any other name but that which we have on the door as well. I am trying to be fair here yet you're basically sticking two fingers up at and saying this entire place and every group and individual within it should identify themselves as an Exile regardless of the fact that we've proved to be divided on Exiles. I don't consider myself to be an exile, or exiled from anyone, anything or anywhere. You feel differently, that's fine. There's no wrong on either side of that as I said but it's something we'll never agree on. When it comes down to it though (and put simply) we are a community and that's something we can agree on.

I really do believe "community" as a whole with individual group variations within it (only if and when people choose) is the best way forward and in the best interest of the group. Believe what you want with your conspiracy theories, I never had any sly or ulterior motives here but trying to consider us all. Whatever. I'm done.
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Re: Our Community

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 8:51 am

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Isileth
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OK I think perhaps things are being taken as personal attacks here and its getting a bit heated. Let me be clear on a few things I have said because I certainly haven't meant them in the way you have taken them.

First of all I am in no way suggesting some secret conspiracy to change the name. I do have a problem with the order this has come about yes, I think this should have been done first before groups were actually named to begin with. We are still currently SSX and I believe we should be playing under that banner unless we change the name. Which in the past we have voted against doing.
I also feel that it is an important point that many wanting this change also wanted us to revert back to the Shattered Star Confederation and I believe this would just end up being a stepping stone towards that and as such the proposal offered wouldn't really be the actual outcome. It makes no sense to use SSX under the tag SSC and would only create confusion so naturally SSC would become the standard. From that point on the exact same arguments used in the past to revert to Confederation would only be stronger and there would then no longer be the arguments against due to our history and connection to SSX.

I don't believe there is any sinister motive, I just also don't believe it will end up as an actual compromise, just that it will naturally pave the way down a route that has been voted against before.

I don't appreciate the fact that you are accusing me sticking two fingers up at the group and not being fair simply for stating my opposition to this and explaining why. I know arguments on the internet get stupidly heated over little things because so its hard to read the intended tone and context but I do feel your missing my motive here. I will have been a member here for 10 years in just a couple of months. This is a group I love and have so many fond memories of. I like you only want to do whats best for the group, its just that we differ on what that is.

I, as you have also stated, think its best if your going to play as a group then you should all play under the same banner. Especially when we are spread over many different games, it becomes a common link that keeps us together.
This is especially important in our case since names using star in them are incredibly common in online games and if we are Burning Stars in one yet Shattered Star Exiles in another there is absolutely no clear link between them. Furthermore its quite likely someone would be playing in another game under the banner Burning Stars making it even more confusing.

Regardless of what name we end up with I would think it makes much more sense to stick to that one name. Especially as during our discussion on irc and in the previous time this was brought up people have tried to argue that having the name Exiles confuses and puts new members off. I find that a strange enough argument let alone if you are going to ignore that having totally different names across several groups would be much worse.

Make no mistake, the amount you have done for this group is immense and you most certainly want the best for us, of that I have absolutely no doubt. But I do disagree with you on this because I don't believe this would be best for us. I don't believe this is a step forward but one back and I don't think it would unite us under one common banner but split us apart.

Re: Our Community

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:32 am

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Anubis
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Calm down guys. No-one here is out to cause offence with their views on this issue, or insinuate people are working against the group over this issue. Try not to take anything too personally - as we've said before, this is an emotive issue :)

I do agree with Isi here, that it does seem convenient and perplexing that this is coming up because of the name of the SC group. "We're calling ourselves Shattered Star Community and that doesn't fit under eXiles name, so we should change the eXiles name" seems completely the wrong way round for me.

We could start a group in a random MMO tomorrow and call the guild "Redheaded Stepchildren of the Shattered Star" if we wanted to, but that doesn't fit well under the eXiles name either - that tells me that we should consider a group name that fits better, not change the name "eXiles" to fit. Given we allow groups to choose their own names, we could be voting on a different name every time a new game comes along otherwise. Why choose "Community" for SC if it's so obvious it doesn't work under the eXiles banner? There are plenty of alternatives.

Unlike Isi seems to be though I'm very much in favour of allowing different group names within reason. Burning Stars was fine and nice to see as far as I was concerned, since we were heavily branding it on the Youtube videos etc as "part of the Shattered Star eXiles". I don't think we all need to be named the same group-wise as long as that link is there and clear. Individual wise...I think it's more difficult. How can those of us who would want to stay SSX do so if there's no group left called that? Seems odd to me...

I also don't really agree that this is a "fair" proposal - because any proposal involving name change inherently is unfair. It's fair for the people who want change, sure, even if we may not be changing to their preferred option, but it's really not fair at all for those who value the name of this place as it is and have won successive membership votes to keep it that way. If the shoe were on the other foot, I doubt you guys would consider it fair if we started raising successive votes about changing back to eXiles should this pass until we forced it through, and rightly so. It's not a fair situation.

MS, you said:
M.Steiner wrote:Why hold on to a name which has such divided meaning, relevance and importance among us all?. Why not name our community as a whole as just that and keep things simple?.

The reason we want to hold onto the name is BECAUSE it has meaning, relevance and importance to those of us voting this way. Shattered Star Community has no meaning, relevance or importance to me. It's not what I am. Why would I vote to change to a soulless name and abandon the history and identity associated with eXiles?

It's a double edged question. You ask, why hold onto a name with such divided feeling. I ask, why force us into another name with such divided feeling? It's a non-winnable question. Whatever wins, the issue will remain just as divided as it is now.
"Perhaps this is what I have always wished for since that day. The loss and destruction of all. That's right, one must destroy before creating. In that case, if my conscience becomes a hindrance to me, then I will simply erase it. I have no other choice but to move forward....therefore!" - Lelouch vi Britannia/Zero, Code Geass: Hangyaku no Lelouch

Forever an eXile and proud of it!

Re: Our Community

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:10 pm

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M.Steiner
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Anubis wrote:MS, you said:
M.Steiner wrote:Why hold on to a name which has such divided meaning, relevance and importance among us all?. Why not name our community as a whole as just that and keep things simple?.

The reason we want to hold onto the name is BECAUSE it has meaning, relevance and importance to those of us voting this way. Shattered Star Community has no meaning, relevance or importance to me. It's not what I am. Why would I vote to change to a soulless name and abandon the history and identity associated with eXiles?

Put your association with the name aside just a sec mate and let me try and explain on just this point :)

Regardless of how you, Isi, myself, BD or anyone else feels about the Exiles name and whatever our own personal history we attach to that name we can all agree that the Exiles name is a name we are all divided over. Yes?. The last vote we had was split 38% to keep, 33% to remove and 29% indifferent.
You're not wrong for associating the name the way you do and neither am I for the way I view it either but this is the point. The name is too specific and identifying for a great number of reasons to everyone here. Whether those be positive, negative or indifferent it's a name we are all split over and feel very different about.

A community on the other hand is what we are and there's not a single person here who can disagree with that. Yes "community" doesn't have its own (positive OR negative) history or "baggage" attached to it, it may lack soul as you say or be generic when used in the actual name but the group as a whole are not divided over the fact that we ARE one. Are we?. It's broad enough as I say to allow a little freedom within it whilst not brushing everyone here with a name that we don't agree on or don't care either way about. It also allows us to move forward as a group and look to the future. Whether the Exiles name lost its significance to me when the Confederation closed its door or whether you still hold strong meaning over it we're both still clinging to the past by keeping that name.

I know I'm on the other side of the fence here and trying to argue for rather than against but that's my reasoning. Simple, soulless, generic aside, we can all come to an agreeance that we're a community here and that we're all members of it. We can't all say the same about Exiles because we all feel differently. I don't feel I am an Exile, or in Exile from anything or anywhere because my association with the name is directly related to the split and how I feel we came up with the name. Your version of that is much different. Neither of us are wrong but whatever name we have up there on the banner both of us can agree that we're a community and we're members of it.

If the poll above had asked "Do you consider this place a community?" - Yes/No.We would have zero no votes, unless someone was purposefully trolling :p. We know that wouldn't be the same with the Exiles name and we've proved that in the past. My approach with community is trying to reach common and fair ground as a group, move forward, keep things simple and go with something that each of us can identify with and agree on if if really thought about. We're never going to be able to do that with Exiles and it would be unfortunate for us to continue identifying the whole group as such given the divide. If everyone really thinks about it I really do feel that community is something we can all get behind and in that respect seems fairer to me on everyone involved. That is just my opinion/view point though :thumb:

[Edit]
To the 4 (so far) of you who have voted against this proposal and to continue identifying the group as Exiles, let me ask - We're clearly never going to agree on Exiles as a whole and never will. If you don't agree with "Community" then perhaps we as as group could discuss an alternative?. For us as a group to pick a name which we can all get behind, support and indentify with as the community at large from this point on. Not a name which holds very different meaning and importance among us and always will. Or are you guys Exiles and Exiles alone and won't budge away from that? Is there no room for compromise here?. That's all I am trying to do :)
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Re: Our Community

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:22 pm

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SL33PY
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I guess this is my first step in as Arbiter

I just would like to point out to everyone to respect each others opinions, feelings and views on the subject at hand.

We're all adults here there is no need for tin foil hatting, name calling or any form of blame laying.

Somewhere along the way the discussion surrounding the name change has taken a strange turn and got sour as early as page two of the 2009 discussion.

It was decided to let the matter rest on both occasions where this was brought up (2009 and 2012). Two years seems a good amount of time to let it rest. No need to comment on the matter being brought up imo.

2009 yielded 30 votes of witch 60% pro keeping the name as is. I suspect that because there was no abstain function there weren't more votes. Reading trough the old thread showed several people telling they didn't vote
2012 yielded 24 votes of which 7 abstained 53% was pro 47% wished to re-brand.
2014 we are currently at 12 votes of which currently 33% is pro and 67% wishes to re-brand.

Some facts I would like to mention:
  • The active member count has been on decline for years and is at an all time low
  • If we find this community precious and alive, each and everyone of us will have to step up and search for more merry folk to join.

Now lets all try to approach this subject as positive as possible. The goal is to progress our little own place and make sure that it still is a nice place to come to for years to come and not some graveyard of good ol memories from the times we didn't have kids or any other worries.

Re: Our Community

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:16 pm

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Anubis
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M.Steiner wrote:To the 4 (so far) of you who have voted against this proposal and to continue identifying the group as Exiles, let me ask - We're clearly never going to agree on Exiles as a whole and never will. If you don't agree with "Community" then perhaps we as as group could discuss an alternative?. For us as a group to pick a name which we can all get behind, support and indentify with as the community at large from this point on. Not a name which holds very different meaning and importance among us and always will. Or are you guys Exiles and Exiles alone and won't budge away from that? Is there no room for compromise here?. That's all I am trying to do :)

If you or someone else can come up with a fair compromise then I'm willing to give it a fair hearing, certainly - I highly doubt I'd be moved, because I'm an eXile through and through as you put it, but I'd listen. I say again though that I don't really think that's possible.

This is basically saying to those who want change "You can have change, but not to what you want" (which I assume would still be "Society"?), which is almost certainly still a moderately palatable suggestion, but to those who don't want change you're saying "You have to change". I just don't see how that's fair or a compromise at all from this side of the argument - especially given we're the side that won this argument twice previously. It's just saying "we're having it our way, just only 90% of the way instead of 100%".

This isn't an issue where compromise will really work, I don't think, as either the name stays or it goes - where's the middle ground? A tagline maybe? "Shattered Star eXiles - An Online Gaming Community"?


I'd also just like to touch on something SL33PY and Kondratev have both mentioned - that membership has been on the decline for a long time and is at a low right now. I'm just not sure that's relevant here is all? Are we seriously suggesting the name of this place is the reason for that? People suggested that it was a barrier to new blood last time this was discussed and no evidence of that was produced to support the claim - and it flew against the experience that myself and others had from recruitment in the past.

Membership being low won't be solved by a name change, nor can less people around here realistically be blamed on us being called eXiles. It just means that some of the people who are left will potentially feel less attachment to the place.
"Perhaps this is what I have always wished for since that day. The loss and destruction of all. That's right, one must destroy before creating. In that case, if my conscience becomes a hindrance to me, then I will simply erase it. I have no other choice but to move forward....therefore!" - Lelouch vi Britannia/Zero, Code Geass: Hangyaku no Lelouch

Forever an eXile and proud of it!

Re: Our Community

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:20 pm

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Whizbang
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This is the only thing I'm going to put out there from the IRC conversation last night:

[18:13] <@Mechanus> Honestly, I think what should be considered are those who are participating in MMOs/MPs that are putting the name out there
[18:13] <@Mechanus> If I don't ever play a game with others under the SS? banner, why should I give a shit about what's put out there?
[18:13] <@Mechanus> I mean, I'm not one that interacting with other people
[18:14] <@Mechanus> So why should I poo poo others' desire to try and re-establish something with more people?
[18:14] <@Mechanus> How does changing the name affect you? Other than some remote semblance of association to history?
Walk on with hope in your heart
And you'll never walk alone

[16:22] <SoulSeeker> i know its not the pc version but i kill kids for fun

<whizbang> Who's the ref?
<Isileth> Some dickhead

Re: Our Community

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:30 pm

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M.Steiner
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Anubis wrote:This isn't an issue where compromise will really work, I don't think, as either the name stays or it goes - where's the middle ground?

The middle ground behind that we as a group can put our baggage to one side and agree on a name which we can all try and agree on.
That doesn't have to be Community like I put forward in the proposal. I just suggested that as it makes the most sense to me as that's exactly what we are and nobody here can deny that. Yes doing so would be a vote towards change rather than staying with what we have and yes that happens to be the way I have voted, but with the idea of us all trying to agree on a name we can all get behind, support and identify with. I'm fully open to other suggestions to try and reach that. Exiles is something we as a group are never going to agree on, can we try and reach something which we do?. I do feel that community is a label we can all identify this place with. Exiles we cannot. Only some of us :)
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Re: Our Community

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 8:15 pm

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NF
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Wow.. this exploded quickly. I was going to stay well away from this whole discussion but some of the arguments are just not sitting well with me...

Now I appreciate that I am only recently back from a long hiatus so feel free to take my thoughts/advice with as much salt as you want..

Firstly I'm not sure I agree with the notion that to be a community we have to specify it in the name, To trivialise matters a little (just to make a point): the iPhone wouldn't have enjoyed the success it did if it had been called White Mobile Telephone. Shattered Star Community is just a bit descriptive/prescriptive for me and doesn't evoke an emotional response like Exiles does - Exiles implies a story, a history. Both of which we have.

Secondly I do Customer/User Experience Design for a living and if you were my client I would be telling you that you are focusing on the wrong thing. A re-brand is not going to solve the underlying issues which is community engagement - and by community I mean both the existing membership roster and the wider gaming community.

The step in to social media is a great move and will help a lot but it will be reliant on existing members going out and telling people to look at our youtube channel or join our Facebook page. I've seen big companies rebrand, then sit back holding tight on to their fancy new name and logo waiting for the customers to come knocking on their door - it never, ever works - it takes a huge amount of effort and a commitment from the stakeholders to make sure it works.

In case its not clear our members are the stakeholders in this little scenario and we need this buy in and commitment from all of them before we can rid us of the recruitment rut we appear to be in. Starting the whole revitalisation process with the most divisive issue to hit the SSX since the SSC split is simply not a smart move - half the stakeholders suddenly have their noses out of joint.

So here is my recommendations:

* Get in game and start selling SSX.
* Push the Youtube channel, link people to Facebook and build up the twitter followers.
* Start chasing the inactive members (the occasional PM is not spam whatever some think - it got me back here so I say hit them again)
* Drop the name change discussion and delete this thread.. if we do get the inactive members popping back the last thing they will want to see is the same, tired argument still raging.

And as my final thought: The SSC was initially built on a single game, FS2, and it expanded from there. Lets pick a single game and use that as the focus to start rebuilding from within that game. Star Citizen seems to be the flavour of the month so why not choose that game - plus there is a certain symmetry to using another space game to revive the SSX.
NF


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